AVAVAV is Bringing Sexy Back — On Their Own Terms

office spoke with Beate about normalizing the ever-so taboo buttcrack, thinking outside of the box, anime classics, and more. Read it all below.

Can you tell me what “Neo Nude” means to you?

Well, first, I wanted to use this idea of 'Neo-sexualism.' Neo nude is catchy and it explains the concept in just one word. But basically, it started from me always doing very covered up pieces. I hadn't ever been interested in doing more nudity in my pieces. Sexiness had not been something that I'd tried to reach as a designer so much. I usually tend to focus on the organic, kind of like Comme Des Garcons — in that world more so. So I wanted to do this, especially because we also realized that we were getting a lot of requests from celebrities, wanting things for the red carpet moments and things like that. Most of them wanted something sexier, so that was definitely new to me. I thought it would be both interesting to try it, but also to see if I would find a new sort of angle through it. I always try to find new ways to conceptualize my designs — to find new shapes and create pieces that hopefully awaken something in the viewer. What's been very new to me is that I usually work by disfiguring the body and not caring so much for the actual body proportions, but more so distorting that and making it bigger in certain parts or exaggerating certain things. But this is about shaping the silhouette with cutouts and focusing on things that I haven't before. When you look at so many designers' clothing, and especially red carpet moments, it's always super nude, but then they always cover the nipples. Because we're still so indoctrinated to believe that that's too much. So I wanted to do something where we could have moments of women and men wearing the same dresses, to equalize and show that it's just a body. It's female nips — like whatever. I thought it could be fun to also normalize the crack because it's so similar to cleavage. Both women and men have a buttcrack and it's actually very sexy, I think. I think it's a super interesting part of the body that we just always cover up. So the name came in as an attempt to reinvent what nudity and sexiness can mean for me as a designer. And, obviously, there's been a lot of creativity in that area, but not so much in the luxury designer world.

I think that it's all very, very reflective of this era that we're starting to see now, where people are a little bit more explorative in what they wear. People are willing to push the boundaries. Your goal is to invert stereotypical ideas of heteronormative “sexiness” through your avant-garde designs — what is your definition of “sexy”?

That's a super good question. When I was a teenager I was thrown into — as so many people are — this especially heteronormative way of constituting what sexy is and what parts you should show, and so on. I was very much pushed into this category that I never felt I actually fit into. In the years after that, I realized 'This is not me. This is not something that I've chosen myself.' It was for other people, because society wanted it. So I think after that, I didn't wanna do any 'naked' clothing ever. I think I wasn't ready to have my own idea of what that meant. So, in that sense, it's been a really fun collection because we are, collectively, as women and just people in general, going through this new journey of 'What feels sexy for me and how do I dress when I want to be sexy for myself?' It's not always about dressing for other people. To me, the sexiest thing is when you can feel that someone is just safe in themself and that they have made the choices on their own. Just knowing yourself, basically. I see it as sort of a responsibility, as a person who grew up with biases and indoctrinations, to kind of break away from that to understand what you actually do like. So I think it comes with the attitude. You can wear whatever — it doesn't have to be nude per se. But that you actually feel like you're owning it. I think that's the sexiest thing.

I think that feeling projects outward. So if that's how you feel, then it will show.

Exactly.

And along with inverting overplayed norms comes democratizing sexuality and facilitating empowerment — who is this collection meant for? Who do you hope to be able to empower?

I think that some people will not understand it, but, hopefully, they still can open up their minds to think, 'Okay, yeah, this is sexy.' With crack, it's funny that it has such associations to plumbers and plumbers cracks and so on. I think it can actually be really cute and sexy. And it applies to both women and men. But my hope is that it reaches out to a lot of different people who — even if they don't relate — that they can still see a new perspective. I am just trying to break down what we have, for so long, pushed into our society as sexy.

It hurts to be different sometimes, even though it's also great.

The 2000s are seeing a monumental revival in the fashion space as far as trends. One influential 2000s trend that is reminiscent of your super-low waisted silhouettes is low-rise jeans. What are some of your other favorite 2000s trends?

When I was little, Paris Hilton was it. And then there was also Avril Lavigne, kind of the more tomboy version of that style. It was kind of all the same trends but on different people. I think there's something nice about bringing it back, but now we're doing it in an empowering way, because the nineties and the 2000s were sort of a weird time. It was more common to want a really skinny figure. I think the difference now is that there isn't just one body archetype and one person that fits into these trends, but we're taking back what sexy can be on our own terms. Which I think is a really good way to go. I also think that sometimes when we are changing our views, we need to have something that we still relate to. And in this case, it's manifesting as repeating trends, like the early 2000s. But I did love Avril Lavigne and Paris Hilton, and The OC fashion, which I grew up with.

One of the dresses in the Neo Nude Collection is made of Burberry deadstock materials. Is repurposing and using sustainable methods something you do often?

Yeah, for sure. AVAVAV was founded upon the ideals of utilizing deadstock opportunities because there's so much luxury, really nice fabric that circles around the area. We also really like doing local production. But we've gone from doing everything deadstock to realizing that it's been very hard for a small, independent brand to survive on only doing that because you definitely need to adapt the whole collection to it. So right now we're trying to do a little bit of both. We're doing everything locally — sourcing and producing everything locally. And then all of our denim is deadstock and many things in the collection are deadstock because we're just trying to push it in wherever we can. Also, there's something really fun about finding a fabric like the Burberry fabric, that is so clearly Burberry because it's their signature checks. And then going farther by turning that into a piece that maybe Burberry wouldn't have made because it's a little bit too progressive for them. We're trying to make it into a fun part of the brand, but it's definitely something we work with a lot and have been working with. And again that connects back to putting your own spin on things — even when it comes to the fabric.

Your designs are all so whimsical, but also extremely surreal and almost eerie. Would you say your designs are reflective of your dreams or your nightmares? What part of your mind do they come from?

I've designed more playful pieces for a long time. And then these past few years it's become more monstrous and nightmarish. I think that that balance is really interesting. I like when designs are not only cute and playful and childish but also aggressive and provocative. My biggest philosophy when it comes to design is just to play with shapes and to come up with new silhouettes, which has also been different with this collection because it has been more about looking into how we can still show so much of the body. It's been difficult to find this balance of playing with the silhouette, but still keeping it very fitted and showing some skin. But I do take a lot of inspiration from my childhood and the visuals that I was encountering back then. I still watch a lot of anime and Miyazaki movies and I take a lot of inspiration from very playful places. But the reason why I love anime and Miyazaki is because he's so good at blending the super vulgar, but also super childish and playful elements.

I think anything that has that ability to be so dynamic makes it so much more thought-provoking, because there are so many different angles that you can see it from. From claw feet to finger shoes, to now the new collection, it seems like you’ve defied every expectation already. How do you plan to keep the momentum going?

I will say, especially now that we've done a more 'nude-focused' collection, and because we are driven by otherness and trying to reinvent what fashion and product can be, it can be very difficult when you're a small brand to get a lot of these more conservative people and parts of the industry to like it. It can be a big risk. It hurts to be different sometimes, even though it's also great. So for us, I definitely don't want to back out of that because I think that's the whole meaning of what we want to do as a brand. I want to keep digging into sculpture and form and shapes in fashion; that's what I feel is my biggest passion. So I think we're going to keep pushing and creating concepts that show a different perspective of fashion. Our shoes, for example, have been getting a lot of attention, but also they are quite niche and there's definitely a customer for them, which is so fun because that allows us to continue doing this. We do need to find a place where we can also have clothing and products that are not super commercial, but just that can still be more wearable every day. We're also looking into getting into the metaverse and creating more digital pieces, which is also super fun for us.

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After 30 years and over 100 cult fragrances, COMME DES GARÇONS PARFUMS 1994–2025 BY SIMONETT & BAER launches this month

December 17, 2024

“I have to add that the topic is, of course, an irrational one, because it's not art and it's not fashion. It has to do with scent, which is something in the air,” explains Dino Simonett, renowned art-book maker and designer/publisher of the new COMME des GARÇONS x SIMONETT & BAER book, which details 30 years of CDG perfumes.

“The moment you smell something is irrational,” he continues. “This book transports you and brings you to the idea behind the perfumes. People have gotten thousands of art catalogues from me, but this fucking perfume thing really drives people a little bit crazy, you know? Because everybody has this bottle; and that bottle smells like this on them; and this bottle I need; and all the memories and everything. I like it a lot that we made this.”

As fans and family of the world’s coolest brand prepared to gather at Dover Street Parfums Market in Paris to celebrate the launch of the book, our Editor-At-Large Paige Silveria shared some coffee and cigarettes with Simonett to discuss his wild trajectory, making books with Joseph Beuys and Tilda Swinton early on, and the importance of nonconformal thinking.

By Paige Silveria

This fucking perfume thing really drives people a little bit crazy.

Paige Silveria: Tell me about yourself. You make books.

Dino Simonett: My books are my art. Each book might be a painting or sculpture. And you should not do the same sculpture all the time. When you hike somewhere, you never should go the same way back home — this is something my mother taught me when I was young. In the same way, it's boring to make the same stuff all the time. So I try to find a way to invent my own language.

PS: This book you’ve made is really beautiful.

DS: It’s hyperrealistic larger-than-life images of boxes and flacons in an endless row presented on paper the thickness of a children’s book.

PS: I loved how it said in the press release that you woke up one Sunday morning and the idea for the book suddenly came to you.

DS: The backstory is that Remo Hallauer [COO of COMME des GARÇONS International] is a true book lover. We met at the Offprint book fair in Paris. And one day, shortly after peak COVID, this email came from him asking if I’d think about a possible collaboration with one of the young stars here — and no hard feelings, but it didn’t work out. So then, as it is in life, which is the essential thing, you have to have an idea. And most of the time, they’re not good enough. You have to have another and another and then you go, Ah ha! Perfume.

PS: And you’d already been pretty familiar with their fragrances?

DS: I’ve known this stuff since the beginning. I wore the first perfume they created. It was part of my life all the time, and I thought, It's so funny. There’s a connection with how I make the books: like two, three books a year, all collaborations and each is different. Just like their perfumes. So I immediately texted Remo.

PS: And what perfect timing, with the 30-year anniversary.

DS: Yes, but this was two years ago or so. I hadn’t had the jubilee in mind. It might not look like much, but there was a lot of work to do.

PS: Many of the advertisements and images weren’t archived, physically or digitally, right? You had to search all over for a good portion of the material?

DS: Well we also had to wait for the official deal to go through in the beginning. Adrian Joffe [President of COMME des GARÇONS International and Dover Street Market International] wanted to do it but he didn’t have the mind space at the time; they were about to open the Dover Street Market here in Paris. So we were on our own for a bit, developing the project from zero. We looked all over the Internet and tried to create the chronology. I had a young guy helping me. He kept reminding me to be patient and to continue to work on growing the book. The door was open, but we had to wait in front of the next room. So we took little steps to prepare ourselves. And stuff slowly worked out.

PS: And thank God for the Internet.

DS: Yes, because as you mentioned, there was no archive. We thought surely they’d have something in the basement. But no, that didn’t exist. At one point they sent us a list of all the perfumes so we had a clear checklist to manage. I had to become an expert.

PS: There are so many, over 100?

DS: Yeah, and at one point the CDG team was activated. It was like a machine and in the spring suddenly a load of stuff was coming. First we had to grow the grapes, then make the wine and then the grappa. And at the end, it's a really strong grappa. And so things came together, and then one day Adrian said, “All is fine, but Rei [Kawakubo] must now also approve it. This is how the system works.” But nobody had told me! So Remo met with Rei to show her the book.

PS: That’s a bit of pressure!

DS: She could have said no and we’d have to throw everything in the garbage, two years of work. There was indeed a little bit of pressure. But it was fine. She liked the book. Then at the end of this summer we met again and they asked if they could have some of the finished copies on 20 November in Tokyo. I said, “I’m sorry, what?” He was thinking that the book was finished, you know? I told him we still needed a lot of material to finish it. Sometimes it's nice though to have this pressure. It's motivating and thrilling when you finally accomplish it all.

PS: Let’s go back. How did your upbringing inform who you are?

DS: It has to do with nonconformal thinking. Most people think the same. And we’re constantly pressured as well, by everything around us to conform. You have to really fight to keep your head and so I had this upbringing with this rather eccentric mother who was absolutely nonconformistic in every way. She was resolute. Why should we follow the path of the masses? It was never my thing. Voilà.

PS: How were you in school?

DS: I was not so good at school. I was only skateboarding at that time. I was on the Swiss National Team. I even was here in Paris at a European championship when I was 15 at the Trocadero. And my mother said, “You are not going to school anymore. You need an apprenticeship. It makes no sense to send you to school any longer.” I was independent and had my first salary at 16.

PS: What were you doing?

DS: I was a carpenter making tables, chairs, all that stuff. All my friends went to high school with like 16-week holidays, while I had only four. And so it was really, really tough shit for a 16 year old. But I learned two important things. The first one was discipline; seven o'clock each day it started and lasted nine hours. And the second thing was precision; you have to do things right. People always said to me that the apprenticeship was good as I’d really use it for the rest of my life. And I always thought that was such bullshit. But actually, it's kind of true. And so anyways, the moment I finished my apprenticeship, the very last day of the last test, I went on the Interrail for one month and never went back to a carpenter shop.

PS: What’d you do after?

DS: I wrote a letter to this very super famous music guy, Claude Nobs who was organizing the Montreux Jazz Festival in Switzerland, telling him I’d like to work there that summer. I mentioned that I’d just finished my apprenticeship for carpentry. He phoned me back immediately after getting the letter. He said, “Oh you’re a carpenter? You can come right now.” He was renovating his apartment in Montreux. So I stayed and worked there alone while he was up at his chalet. I felt like Kevin McCallister from Home Alone in this completely furnished apartment. And then the festival started, and there was this guy from New York doing a large mural painting. It was Keith Haring. I had no idea who he was. We became friends. Then I met George Benson and Herbie Hancock. It started from nothing and then one thing comes, another thing comes, another thing comes. This is how I started, which is maybe not the natural way. But I was following my intuition and taking chances and putting myself out there.

PS: And you're going after what you have a passion for.

DS: I think that’s the best way to live one's life. It was like my own private art school. I met all the guys I was totally hot about. I met Joseph Beuys and told him I wanted to do an art project with him. I got his number and he told me to ask for his assistant. But I took everything for granted, what people said to me. So I had this phone number in Berlin. And I called the guy 20 times until this fucking meeting with Beuys finally happened. And we met and made a small collaboration art magazine called “Quer.” You just have to stick to the stuff.

PS: Wow. You don't still have one of those copies around, do you?

DS: I had one and I brought it to Remo at one of our meetings. Adrian saw it and immediately took it … I hope he gave it back to Remo. Adrian has a pile of my stuff that he wanted to see, so that’s good.

PS: Yeah, of any coffee table in the world for it to be displayed, his is probably in the top 10.

DS: So then I decided my dream was to be a film director. There was a film school in Berlin that I applied to. They only took about 18 people from 600. We waited all week to see this list on the wall for the final call back meeting. And my name wasn’t there. I was like, “Shit!” And then a week later, I received a letter saying I’d been accepted. Later the director told me it was clear enough with my application and the art magazine I’d sent that I’d be accepted. I don’t say this to brag. I say this to tell you that every young person that wants to go somewhere, all they have to do is fight. You have to get out of your house and your small town and your comfort zone and all that shit.

PS: I agree. So you’ve made films?

DS: I made a feature movie and went to the film festival. It was really amazing and everything, but I was not Tarantino, you know? So it’s the last semester and Tilda Swinton is supposed to teach a seminar. I really wanted to attend it. It would be the cherry on top of the cake. Then she postponed it once, then twice. The third time, I’m on the tube and there’s a woman in front of me with a newspaper that says that Tilda’s super mentor, Derek Jarman, had passed away. It’s the very Monday morning that her seminar is set to begin. And I thought, Oh shit. She’s not going to be there. But then she was there after all and it was a fantastic week. There were only five of us students and we all fell in love with her. And she fell in love with us. I’ve known her since.

PS: I can only imagine. How’d you make the transition into books?

DS: You have to find out what you're really good at. I had long discussions with this guru, an old guy who was a very diligent, very bright guy. I was really miserable, feeling directionless. He asked me why I wasn’t continuing with filmmaking. And I couldn't give him an answer. Then he said right into my face, “Probably it’s because you’re not good enough.” The message was one-hundred percent received. It was a relief; I'm not a bad person. This guy told me the truth, and I could accept it. And when you can do this, you can figure out what you actually want to do, what you’re actually good at. I started making books. I made one with another film director. And we visited Tilda at her hotel, bringing one to her as a present. As we’re knocking, I thought to myself, If I did another book focused on people in this business, it’d have to be her. And she opens the door, looks at the book and says, “Oh, I would like to have a book like this on me.”

PS: These situations seem unreal.

DS: I spent five years on her book, which was an enormous success. It included stills from all her films and launched it in different cities. Fantastic shit.

PS: And now you’ve just released this soon-to-be iconic CDG book.

DS: I've learned to be patient; things can take you years. This book with Adrian and Remo took two years and I didn’t even know if it was going to be approved! Follow your dreams as much as you can. It's not so important which dream it is exactly. If I see a step in front of me, I try to take each chance I get. This is what I wish for everybody, in whatever situation you find yourself, start to do something with nothing. This book started with just a simple idea. You can not find anything like this on the Internet, this compilation, this narrative. It’s something we had to bring together with enormous work. And here we are. I think in our digital, splattered times sometimes you have to make something which is real. That you can sit with and focus on in silence and really take time alone with it.