Charting Westside Gunn’s Musical Artistry

Last Thursday night, Gunn hosted a listening party at Goldbar — a venue that perfectly matched the theme of the album: luxury. Here, we saw some familiar faces who popped out to support the rapper, such as Tremaine Emory, Benny the Butcher, and more.

office sat down with Gunn to discuss the making of And Then You Pray For Me, his end to studio albums, and what’s next for the Buffalo, New York rapper.

How was the listening party for you, and what’s been the feedback so far?

The listening party was dope because I never have listening parties. I never have parties at all. It was cool to see a lot of my peers, day-one-supporters, and family come out…It was super dope. I want you to hear the album all the way through and pay attention to the art.

Where was the album created?

It was done in Paris, Copenhagen, Denmark, and so many different parts of the world. I went to Athens and Santorini, Greece. I was just in the zone. Paris Fashion Week inspired me in January, like the first time I went in January 2020 with Virgil. I had that same feeling again. It was my first time since Pray for Paris. Not to sound corny, but it was the spirit of Virgil. He wasn’t there physically but spiritually. Let’s finish what we started.

Does scenery give you a lot of inspiration?

For sure. That was one of the top reasons why I did Pray for Paris. Leaving the country and going to a place like Paris is mind-blowing because I’m from East Side Buffalo. A lot of people will never see the Eiffel Tower in their life.

I’m hearing that this is your last album. Is that true?

It’s my last album as far as making over 20 songs, 15 songs of a full-body album. I’m more into making a song today and dropping it tomorrow like the Soundcloud, raw Griselda days. Instead of focusing on an album, only dropping once a year, and putting all of that energy into trying to present one project, I’m like fuck that. I might make a song and drop it tomorrow, even though my album just came out. I finally have people’s attention. Some people love it, some people hate it. They don’t even see the bigger picture, they’re just worried about today.

What does this mean for Griselda?

I’m never going to stop curating. That’s the thing about my team. If I call Conway the machine right now and say, ‘Pack your bags, we’re going to Poland for a month and about to record,’ he’ll be like, ‘Let’s go.’ Griselda is a family. When you sign to Griselda Records, it doesn’t mean you’re signing your life away to Westside Gunn; it means you’re my family.

You're going to get a better version of Westside Gunn.

I want to talk about the album cover of Caravaggio’s The Entombment of Christ. The late Virgil Abloh created it?

As soon as I was done with Pray for Paris, V told me to send a picture of all my chains individually. I laid my chains out, and he started sending me different art pieces with the chains on. At first, I wanted this to be kind of a trilogy series and have Mona Lisa represent the Pray for Paris series. I got the blessing from his family and everyone involved. Unfortunately, he passed. When I was going to do part two, I didn’t have the energy to do it. The time wasn’t right. I felt weird even trying to do it, it wasn’t even a thought. I let it (the covers) breathe for a while and get some air. Like I said, once fashion week came around this time, it felt like the time. He (Abloh) sent me there again.

I think it’s important for Black people to travel the world, especially where they’re least expected.

Especially because nobody’s even seen a motherfucker from East Side Buffalo. We’re a different breed. We never get respected because we’ve always been in no man’s land. I never took offense to it. I’m just going to work harder than everybody I know and put my city on – and I accomplished that.

Because Pray for Paris and And Then You Pray For Me albums are similar, are the albums correlated?

This is the sequel, but I didn’t want to call it Pray for Paris Part II. When I made Hitler Wears Hermes Part II, I made a song with Eric B., and in the song, I say, ‘Pray for Paris, then you pray for me.’ This was a line I said a decade ago.

There is an interlude in the album of Tyler, the Creator, saying you’re one of the reasons he wants to continue rapping. How does that make you feel?

It’s a blessing because that’s what I’m here for. Some people only come into this shit for money and with hidden agendas. I came into this shit so pure, I always did it my way. I’ve never compromised my art. I always stuck to my heart. I basically controlled my own destiny all the way through.

Now that you’re over long studio albums, what’s next for Westside Gunn?

I’m excited to just watch my kids grow. I have a daughter that’s only two and a son that’s four. This is the most I’ve ever been away from home, but they came with me everywhere. I’m not the only one who went to the Pyramids; they rode a camel, too. Now, I’m just gonna have fun. There’s no more pressure on me to do full albums. I can just give you art when I want, how I want, and when I want. I think it’s going to be even better. You’re going to get a better version of Westside Gunn. Long live Michelle, long live Virgil.

Music

Oklou Says It’s Okay to Make Life A Performance of Your Own Rite

She had just returned from the Kiko Kostadinov show at Paris Fashion Week. “It was beautiful,” she said with a soft smile, an enticing gentleness that mirrors her artistry, honed from years studying classical music, hosting radio shows in Paris, and being heavily involved in the musicality and lyricism of her work. Just days earlier, Oklou had hosted her own intimate shows in an inconspicuous Chinatown space in New York City. Guests ascended a slightly-too-small elevator—its deliberate slowness creating a hint of suspense—and arrived at a room bathed in soft pink and purple light. Floor cushions scattered through the space encouraged an intimate listening experience as Oklouunveiled the songs she’d been crafting over the past two years, offering a deeply personal and immersive performance.

What began as a planned thirty-minute conversation about her upcoming album stretched into an hour-long exploration of her work: processing life through song, the pursuit of artistic integrity, the magic of perfect loops, and her ongoing search for simplicity in both sound and expression.

“So, I’m going to try my best to talk about this,” she began, leaning in slightly. “When I talk about the songs and the album, there’s just so many feelings and thoughts I’ve been trying to put into words. It’s been one of the biggest challenges for me.”

She paused, then laughed lightly. “I make songs, and then when it comes to talking about them, I often get lost along the way. So, pardon me if that happens.”

The honesty of her admission added to her charm. “It’s an effort for me,” she explained. “Even in French, it’s hard for me to make sense of everything. So in English… my brain is like, agh, you know?”

Your single “friends and family” has been out for two weeks now! How does it feel “to be back”, as they call it and have released this song into the world after a period of away?

Yeah, it feels great. I've been waiting for that for a couple of months now, if not years. It's really nice for many reasons. I'm glad to get back in touch with my audience. I am happy that I finally can, after all these months of writing, I can release a bit of the creative pressure, even though it's still there because now we are working on the imagery and all the visuals. It's also a lot of work, but my main medium, which is music, it's all done. So it feels a little bit like a holiday with a bit of a paradox because I'm way busier than I've been over the last two years, but mentally, because I don't have that pressure over the music and all the creative stress, the business is actually comfortable.

There’s a line in the track, if I heard correctly, about lying in bed all day. So I was curious, what's your perfect day, lying in bed?

Love that question. I would take the time to actually watch movies during daytime because it's not something I do anymore. It's such a shame because when you watch movies at night, you fall asleep and movies deserve the actual focus and attention that you have throughout the morning or the afternoon. So, I really want to normalize watching movies during the daytime; it’d be great for all of us. Anyway, I would do that…I would probably sleep, of course. I would probably read, take the time to read and listen to podcasts. You know, nothing crazy. Eat some blueberries.

Thinking back to that feeling of release, you posted last week on your Instagram account about how “friends and family” has to do with performance, and I also remember also at the New York show, you mentioned how you felt like you could just be human in that space– you didn't have to just put on a persona. Could maybe elaborate more on that? On your being able to be yourself versus having to put on a performance?

The other day, I sent the music video to my family on WhatsApp group chat, and they asked, well first, obviously, they're all French, and they don't understand a word of the song since it’s all in English. So they've asked, “What’s this about?” And that was when I actually put my finger on that performance thing. Basically, the song starts with me relating a memory I have of one of my teachers in my life from when I was very young. This teacher was always trying to push me to be more emotionally impressive with my classical music, so I began to see it as a challenge like “Oh, you think I'm callous and cold? Watch this, I'm going to put tears in everybody's eyes”.

So, I started performing to emotionally move people, but for the wrong reasons. Now, I'm trying to understand where in lies the performance that is my own. It's like a conversation with myself I guess where I'm trying to figure out what path I really want to pursue with only my own critique which is almost impossible, but I'm doing the questioning.

I think failure is more, well I would say, it’s an attempt. When you are learning, when you are trying, you cannot be failing because in some way, you are still moving ahead.

You shared via Instagram caption that you hadn’t posted anything on social media for a while because you felt like you weren't meeting the expectations of your job. What made you feel that way?

Well, to be fair, first of all, I think this caption was a bit of a joke because I don't really feel like I haven't met people's expectations in the sense that it's okay for me to take my time creatively.

I think I'm not there to fulfill anybody's expectations. It's art. There's no recipe, whatever. But also purely from a social media perspective, I’ve been restraining myself so that I could be active during the writing process. Which is fine because I’ve been on social media ever since I could. It's been more than 10 years, and it's always been a habit for me to post as I've always been very vocal on the Internet. And recently, I think for the first time, I've been a bit more distanced, also because I cannot… just like having that phone in my hands, was hurting my eyes more and more.

Sorry, there's a mosquito.

It's okay.

I also felt I felt like people didn't really care about the flowers in my garden I would post on my Instagram story. People would be like, “Girl, where's the music?” which didn’t make me mad at all. I understood. It’s all jokes. But that's why I wrote that caption, basically.

It seems like you have a healthy line of understanding why you do what you do creatively and looking at things through your lens without the perspectives or opinions of others blinding you. With that said, how do you measure your own success?

I think it's a very interesting question, but also really hard because there are so many layers to the feeling of success. There's the financial success, there is the numbers success, which is connected to financial, obviously. But when I say numbers, it's the actual numbers or streams or views or followers. And then the one that I might be a bit cliché, but it's really true in my In my recent life. But the success that I prefer is far from the numbers. It’s a much more intimate feeling that I've done what I was meant to do.

Like very personal.

Whether it's commercially a success or not, is so disconnected from my personal gauge. Of course, when both conditions are met, commercial success and my personal feeling of accomplishment, it's amazing. It's not It's not making me grow as an artist, not numbers wise, I'm not interested.

Mhm.

It's such a privilege to be able to say it because obviously, like everyone else, I need to make money to live. But also, I don't think I can do anything with my music just to pay my rent. I'm not ready to give up on my artistic integrity. And the older I grow, the more this feeling is confirmed in my head. The worst thing is don’t have full control, the decisions don’t resonate with your heart at all, and then it goes wrong. And then you're like, well, what did we learn? Nothing. We learned nothing from that.

What about “failure”?

And failure? Failure for me is a bit of a hard word because I'd rather say... I think failure is more, well I would say, it’s an attempt. When you are learning, when you are trying, you cannot be failing because in some way, you are still moving ahead.

I really love, too, what you said about your successes, being so intimately personal to you; the feeling of when you've been able to do exactly what you felt you wanted to do, and it all came together.

What journey did this project take you on? What emotions were you channeling or unraveling, or processing?

Many different moments of this past two and a half years– that's how long it took me to put the pieces together.. At the beginning, I was convinced I wanted to do a more like a rave-ish album without drums at all, but then I started adding the drums on my stuff and writing songs with guitar.

I love that song. The bird one.

Thank you!

But yeah, I think this album has many questions and not many answers. It's filled with directions and attempts also, irregularities. It's a depiction of, I guess, what also happened in my life and also me trying to guess what happened - putting it all together.

I think all of your songs, maybe there are some voice notes and things that are in French, but for the most part, I feel like they're all in English. Does that allow you to try and process things that don't make sense to you in French, or is it just your method?

English, for me, was a way to take the pressure away when it comes to lyrics and language. I think I wouldn't allow myself to write things in French because my appreciation of French poetry is so high, and I know that I would never, never meet these expectations myself because I'm a musician first and lyricism follows. It doesn't mean that I don't care if I do something average. I really care, but at least this way I can free myself from feeling self-conscious or critical when I write.

I love how you’ve found a way to create in your own manner with as much respect as possible.

Oh, yeah. I've tried as much as possible.

I noticed you're back working with CaseyMQ. I'm sure you guys have never stopped working together. What's it like working with someone you’re so comfortable with who can help you unpack your life into song?

Casey is amazing to work with because he understands my vision. He's the only person that basically can help me on every aspect of the music from lyrics to melody, elaborating on certain parts, just everything. He can, I think, he can pull out any texture of sound I want, and everything I cannot do, he can do. I don't think I'll ever find someone like that ever to write my songs with him and I'm very grateful to have met him.

How has your work together evolved especially for this project?

For this project sonically, there is one common ground connecting the majority of the songs and that is this idea of finding the perfect loops. This idea came from my listening and admiration of artists like Chuck Person’s with his Ecco Jams and Lorenzo Siemi who I’ve been listening to for a long time who also had those ideas at their forefront.

So instead of elaborating on melodies and harmonies that change and that are patterns that are longer in time, the songs on this album were based on singular patterns that I really liked and then we thought okay let's try to make a song with that.

That’s really cool to hear because now we can all listen for those loops. I feel like things of that nature are what make songs so enjoyable to listen to.

Yea, it’s like the song can go on forever.

Continuing on the idea of collaboration, for this project you have a song with Underscores! How did that come about?

April (of Underscores), she's blown my mind with her previous body of work – the richness of it, the way she masters her productions, and she's doing it all by herself! She's some sort of genius to me. I think I just really trusted her ability to work with anything I sent over to her plus I knew she would bring something more even than her vocals to the track. And she did.

And a song with Bladee! Tell me about that one? Did these collabs happen sort of organically?

So there was nothing organic about these collabs, I'm afraid, because I actually don’t think I've ever met either IRL. [laughs]

Or actually, I met Bladee probably eight years ago or nine years ago. We were both starting our careers, the SoundCloud era and then he did what he did with all these Swedish boys.

Drain Gang?

Yeah, exactly! Those guys like Young Lean and their producers as well, obviously, have always been an influence and an inspiration for all these years, so I've always hoped that one day I could make a song with them to honor the connection I personally have with them.

I've sent a message, I think, to several people from Drain Gang and Bladee answered positively. So, I sent him a track and he was into it, and that's how it happened! I'm super grateful that he accepted because I guess he must be receiving so many messages...

Well, no, actually, I didn't send it out of blue. He did say once, “Oh, it would be nice to do something together”. So it wasn't totally like out of the blue

I think the people are going to lose their minds when they hear the songs! It’s also it a bit like you said, nice when you make these decisions, you can come together and it's greater than you. It's really satisfying.

Yeah, exactly. Super exciting.

This project is currently called choke enough, but since it doesn’t come out until February, do you think that will change? I ask because when your team sent over the album for pre-listening, they said some aspects might still change.

I think I’ll keep it, even though I thought about it recently I was like, “hmm, do I want to change it?”, but I don't have other ideas, so I don't think it's going to change.

I wanted to know, and you can also just leave it as that, but what does that title mean? From my interpretation, it's almost like when you just go through so much, but it doesn’t seem like it’s end so you’re asking yourself when is it enough?

So I guess I have many different things to say. First thing is that there is a song titled “choke enough” on the album that I just love so much. I was really hyped? Hyped is that, can I say that?

Haha, yeah, yeah. Like really excited?

I'm really imitating Americans, with that one, with words I don’t even understand. Hyped [laughs]. But yea, I was very excited about that song and I had all these ideas of titles, but none of them were good enough. So at some point, Casey, again, was like, “Well, if you like “choke enough” that much, you could just call the album that.” It took me a bit of time to solidify that choice because I knew that the phrase doesn't really mean anything in English. It's not something you say.

Yeah, I know. Like what is choke enough? You know?

It’s kind of just gibberish that I sang on the song and it just stayed there. I also like the fact that it doesn't really mean anything and it becomes brutal proof that I don’t always master what I’m trying to say.

Mhm, mhm.

Also, people can, as you just did, try to put their own meaning to it which is always something I appreciate. It’s the search for the drama, which I was leaning towards myself and I lost myself a little bit.

How so?

There’s this feeling of looking for sensations and the idea of being a bit overwhelmed with all of these different paths and not knowing which one to take. The album for me is like a messy bedroom.

The everyday struggle.

Exactly. That's exactly what this song is about. It’s asking, “how far am I ready to go in order to feel alive?” The way you are seeking the drama and getting into these situations, but on the other hand, how are you going to find fulfillment in a more simple life? Not the super sexy aspects of life, but also learning to value very accessible, and tangible moments in life.

There is a lyric in your song “blade bird” that I mentioned earlier about a romantic relationship, “What can I say? Knew it right away… you are what you are and I feel like a cage…I'll be the one who ends up getting hurt”. Does that tie back into this idea of lengths one goes to feel alive?

Yeah, “blade bird” is literally about this habit that I'm seeing in so many women in general, in my own family and in myself as well. A pattern where you fall in love with people because they represent a sense of freedom, but for me, truly love and relationships are about being able to rely on somebody. So the bird is, for me, a nice image because well, it's a bird, and you cannot put it in a cage. I mean, you could, but that would be pretty sad.

Exactly.

It's like… It's illegal.

It’s like why can’t we be free, but be free together? I don't know.

Be like, respectful, responsible, reliable.

Music

CHASING ROY BLAIR

November 18, 2024

For those of us a little too deep in our feels in 2017, Roy Blair was an oasis in an age of uncertainty. It was the era of interpersonal lyricism: vulnerable storytelling set against synth-heavy backdrops tied together with grounding hooks. Lost in the ruins of Spotify, stumbling across artists who brought raw emotion to life, we found ourselves captivated by Blair’s debut album, Cat Heaven. A mind-altering introduction to his genius, the album became the soundtrack to our year—from the joyous highs to the moments where only his words could describe the anxieties we couldn’t articulate. Roy did for us what other artists tried to do.

But then, when we needed him most, he vanished. Fans turned to Reddit deep dives marked with threads like “r/WHERE_IS_ROY_BLAIR?” as rumors swirled about an imminent second album. Years passed. The wait grew longer. But, half a decade later, the rumors proved true.

Intro + Interview by: Cassie Jekanoski
Photography by: Jeret Cheatham

Suddenly, notifications were lighting up phones everywhere: Roy Blair was back with a new project, Chasing Moving Trains. First came “Panavision” — a sweeping accumulation of his past, present, and future. Then, “Strawberry,” an upbeat, serotonin-laced track destined for replays. When the full album finally dropped, it was unmistakable—this was the purest embodiment of Roy Blair yet.

In an exclusive interview with the artist, office sat down with Blair to discuss the long-awaited release of Chasing Moving Trains, the headspace that defined his hiatus, and what lies ahead.

Read on as we delve into the truths behind those restless Reddit threads and answer the questions we’ve all been dying to know the answers to.

CASSIE– It's been a year for me since I've done an interview with somebody, so thank you for taking the time to do this. So first off, hi. How are you doing?

ROY BLAIR– I'm good. Sick. Yeah, just taking it day by day right now, honestly.

Cool. And where are you now?

New York.

Well, first off, I just wanted to say that I've been a fan of your music since literally 2017, 2018, and some of your songs have really just been the soundtrack to some of my happiest/most sentimental memories that I have had over the years. So thank you for sharing your art with us.

That means a lot. Thank you. I mean, it's so nice. I did another interview with someone and it's been half a decade or more, so the people who would be interviewing me are like, "Oh, I listened to your music." And that's so cool. Whereas when I was first doing interviews around Cat Heaven, it was like, "Who are you?" That was more of the vibe.

Damn. I mean, well, yeah, I'm coming out of interview retirement to do this. So let's get into it. So Chasing Moving Trains, what is the significance of this album title for you?

It's a few things. So I would say the main point of it is just always wanting some sort of perfection or the thing that you dream in your head to fully come to life. It’s always chasing this non-existent utopia of achieving what you want to achieve in life. It's sort of, the grass is greener on the other side always, and so you’re never really settling and appreciating what you have in front of you. The steps along the way I think are beautiful and worth just as much of your time, or maybe more of your time, than getting to the final thing. The point of the title is always chasing this ideal that you have in your head. And then the other thing is this is a record about finding yourself and going out into the world and learning more about yourself by meeting more people, by experiencing more things. The title is also literally this- I'm taking so many trains that I'm almost missing the train, if you will.

The train itself.

Yeah, or I'm traveling so much, whether it be on tour or just working on the record. I recorded the record in a few places. It's just this nonstop travel and exploration of the world and in turn yourself as well.

Sick. I feel like as an artist, I mean, correct me if I'm wrong, but it's in searching for that end goal, that maybe sometimes you stop to kind of realize where you've been, the different things that you've learned, and the different people that you've met along the way.

Totally.

I got a chance to listen to the album and I've literally been listening nonstop.

That's amazing. Thank you.

It's so good. In the title song itself, you repeat the phrase, "sometimes I can't recognize myself." Is that something that you would want to dive deeper into?

I don't know if anyone else has this experience, but sometimes I think I have a depersonalization, or I think there's an actual phrase for it, where you almost don't feel like you're in your own body. I think the thing I'm talking about is where sometimes you literally feel outside of your body. You're watching a person live your life, and sometimes I think I have that. I think sometimes I can feel so empty or in such a strange place in my life that I almost feel like I'm not recognizing the person I am. I'm not living in the moment or being present that I don't even know sometimes who I am, which is, I think that goes back to that album title and why that's the title track. There's this recurring kind of narrative thread in the record about shadows and reflections. I was trying to connect this surrealism thing where basically- I don't know. I don't want to maybe ruin it or maybe over explain it, but that does tie into this thing I was trying to tell with basically a shadow of me following me, being paranoid about my career, and my life. The main concept is really just that sometimes I literally look in the mirror and be like, I don't know who I'm looking at sometimes because maybe I'm just so out of it, or not in the moment.

Well, would you say that, especially with this new album, would you say that this a cathartic release for you and by putting this album out you're able to recognize yourself and know who you are?

Yeah, I think so for sure. I think in a funny way, spending as much time as I did with this record and falling in and out of love with making it. There was a time where I was kind of just like, “I don't really like making music anymore.” I think I was so stressed about the concept of, "Oh, I have to finish this. People are waiting for this." At this point, I'm off social media and I have to come back at some point. Then it started to pile onto me, and then I was like, "Okay, I'm going to take a step away from this." And then I started DJing in New York. This was summer 2022, and that kind of got me excited again about making music. I started locking back in on the record and I think in a funny way, even the process of making this record was cathartic because I sat with it for so long and I sat away from the audience for so long. This record is so me. You know what I mean? There's no, "Oh, I'm trying to keep up with a system." It's really just me being indulgent in a good way and being confident about it. I think it's definitely cathartic for me.

No, that's sick to hear. I'm glad that all of those different experiences brought you back into making music. But a big question that I feel like many fans are curious about was what you kind of brought up a little bit, but just taking some time in between Cat Heaven and Chasing Moving Trains. Was there anything else that you kind of wanted to bring up that was going through your mind during those years?

Yeah, I mean, the main idea is I started working on this record in January 2019. Well, honestly, I was trying to start the day after I finished Cat Heaven and I think all of 2018 was me trying to figure out what the record was going to be tonally. And then the first song that is on the album that we made was "Garden" and that was December 2018. And then the newest song in the record is 2021.

Which one?

It's "Belmont."

Okay, cool.

Well, that song is actually from 2019, but we flipped it completely. I would say that when I was working on that song, it was much different, and I was working on it a lot in 2021. But technically the newest song is "Strawberry" from Summer 2020 in terms of fresh idea. But I would argue that "Belmont" changed so much that it's almost a different song entirely. We were in London when COVID happened, working on this album, I had just made "Plum," and then the lockdown stuff was really getting serious, and we got back from London the week before everything actually closed. We were going to go to Tokyo, but that got canceled. We were going to go in April, and then it was kind of just like, "So what are we going to do now that there's this big space in between?" But now with as much time that has passed, people haven't fully thought about that being a part of this story.

I mean, it definitely is.

Yeah. And then we started basically picking work back up at the end of 2020. It was a lot of figuring out what I wanted to say that honestly took the most amount of time, just lyrics and also me growing up in real time. Maybe there were songs, ideas, or verses where I felt that was an older version of me, and that didn't really feel like the future of who I am and what I really want to be. The album took this long, might as well make it count, you know? I don't want to put out something just to put out something. At this point it's gotta matter.

Definitely.

The lockdown and everything in 2020 really kind of made me take a step back and just start existing more in real life. And then I started just growing up and the record took a long time because of that.

Yeah, I mean, that totally makes sense. I feel like especially in these past few years, there has been so much change happening that no one really had control over. So I totally get that break and need to figure out who you are, not even just as an artist, but just as a person in general, especially at such a pivotal turning point. How would you say you've grown as an artist since Cat Heaven to where you're at now? And has that growth been reflected in this new album?

First thing is just taste wise. My taste has expanded a lot just in terms of what I'm listening to. There was a lot of electronic music I got into in 2018 that just shaped a whole section of who Roy Blair is going forward that you hear on Graffiti and you hear a little bit more on this. I think that's a big component. I think Cat Heaven, Chasing Moving Trains, and even Graffiti, are pretty similar, and I think if you're a fan of me, you can clock that. I think obviously there's a lot of production differences, but I think at the core, you could listen to Cat Heaven, Chasing Moving Trains, and go, "Okay, he's kind of doing similar things with structure here, or narrative. This feels like the climax of both records." I still love Cat Heaven, still go back to that record, and go, "Hey, I didn't really know what I was doing other than that I think I have good sensibilities for how an album should feel front to back." I figured it out, and that resonated with people, and I knew that, so I wanted to do a better version of that basically. So I think the only things that have really changed is just that I got a bigger budget to do this, and I'm working with maybe more people, but honestly, I've kind of kept some of the things very similar because I think the things that mean a lot to the fans also mean a lot to me.

I can definitely see from 2017 to now, and even your project in between, you have influences from both of those, and it's kind of the perfect culmination in Chasing Moving Trains where you get that synth, you get that techno. But then it also breaks down to where it's just you being raw and singing the lyrics that are still really impactful and meaningful, but it's kind of a whole big present all wrapped into one.

I really connect "Rain" on this album to "Grand Theft Auto." Originally it was supposed to be the same amount of tracks, but I cut it down because it's about the album being better, not always about narrative. But there are a lot of counterparts in terms of you could look at this song and it's this song, or you can look at that song and it's kind of similar to what he was doing with that song. But yeah, I think there's a lot of similarities. There's a lot of threads between both records, or all three records for that matter.

Yeah, definitely. I think I'm kind of deciding what my favorite track from this album is. I think as of right now it's Amberwood.

Oh, sick.

The first time listening to it, I literally got the craziest chills and had to text all my friends. I was like, "Oh my God, just wait until this song comes out. You guys are going to freak out." I feel like it's raw. The lyrics are really beautiful and also a bit haunting. At least what I took away from it was what you were going through and talking about those first feelings you had when first starting to make music and the aftermath of that. So can you get into what you were feeling when you were writing this song?

I think the idea started in Iceland. Originally it was basically up until when the drums drop was the original version, and then there was kind of a different hook, and I was like, "Nah, this hook, it's not very good. Let's just take it off. And I don't like where the song goes." In London in February of 2020, we got to the part where the drums drop and then we were trying to figure it out, but I didn't write that second verse until summer 2020. So if you think about it, it's kind of funny because those verses feel different in energy, or just maybe where my head's at in terms of where I'm at in my career, you know what I mean? When I first started that, just to be honest, I didn't have an idea. We were making music day in and day out in Iceland, and it kind of just came to me and I was like, "Oh, this is a cool concept." As I was sitting on that, my energy towards being in the music industry started to shift slightly, and just the tone of my career or certain things that were frustrating me a lot, being independent at the time started changing. Then you got the third verse where it almost feels like the tone of where it's getting to where I'm at, and the feeling of where I'm at shifting. You can kind of feel it shift in real time over the song.

You definitely see it. It's really interesting to hear your insight on it and where you were spatially location-wise and everything when you were writing that song and finishing all of that up. Do you have a personal favorite from the album?

Yeah, I think so. I think that it changes a lot for me, which is always a good sign where I'm like, "Oh, this one's actually clicking." I think it used to be "Panavision" for a while, and then now I think a lot this year it's been "Garden." For a long time it was also "Plum." And then I think the title track to me these days, I like listening to it a lot. I think that run from basically Chasing Moving Trains to the end of the album is pretty fucking great. Maybe I'll start with "Panavision" and then I'll just let the album run and I'll be like, alright, I'm just going to listen to the rest of the record, which is a good sign.

Sick, "Garden's" really, really great. So I feel like throughout this, you've been talking about different locations and whether in Iceland, London, or Japan not happening at that moment. So you were kind of traveling in all these different places. Are there any other places that you were at when you were making the album?

Just New York a lot. So I was in LA and it was feeling pretty stagnant. This was like 2018, and I was doing sessions and nothing was feeling great. I would go to New York for a show or something and I'd do a session with these guys I ended up working with. And then me and my friend Edgar, went to New York at the beginning of 2019 to work with these guys. It was icy and cold, and we were listening to Radiohead and a bunch of stuff, and it was just very different. It was a tone shift the minute we landed, and then it kind of reflected immediately in the music we were making. So I would argue it's kind of like New York, Iceland, London, and then maybe in sort of a fake way Japan as well. I think it's still narratively a part of the record, even if we didn't go, I think the record theoretically ends there or something, or maybe ends with me coming back home to LA or New York. I think that the concept at the end of the record is me stepping off the train and into a new place or into a new part of my life, if you will.

Sick. So would you say that, so now you're living in New York, what is it about the city that continues to inspire you?

All of my friends here are just amazing artists. Everyone I know here doesn't feel like they always have to be online or share everything they're doing all the time. It's not very performative. So it's just me and my friends and we make music at each other's places and we're just hanging out. And sometimes we go to stuff, but not really. I'm able to find more of the stuff that I resonate with hobby-wise. I go to the movies all the time here, I see old movies at Metrograph, I go buy used CDs, or go bike at the park near me. There's just a lot more of a sense that I can go outside and find something that's going to fulfill the non-music aspect of me that for some reason I just struggled to find in LA.

That's cool. I love to hear that. I totally understand where it's so easy to get caught up and wrapped up in a scene. You mentioned it earlier too, about DJing these past couple of years, so now that this new project is out, do you think that DJing is something that you'll continue to do?

Yeah, definitely. I'm specific in what I like. I'm probably not a good DJ definition wise just because I think it's valid that a part of DJing is making the crowd entertained, so I don't know if it's that I'm DJing for the wrong crowd. I don't really like a lot of new stuff, the stuff I play I feel like is not super loud either. It's kind of just quieter music. So I don't know. I love doing it. I don't get offered a lot of gigs, honestly, but I'm not really looking. I don't go out and go like, "Hey, book me, book me." This is kind of like a hobby for me. I'm so down to do it more, it's just a matter of when, or if it gets brought up to me really.

How similar or different your mixes are compared to the music that you make? And what kind of artists inspired Chasing Moving Trains?

One of the big influences that I would recommend anyone to check out is the Trainspotting soundtrack. I was scared by it. The music itself freaked me out when I was younger. But as I got older and rewatched the movie, I'm doing this electronic album studying and I'm like, "Oh, yeah, I love this song." Underworld is a nineties, early two thousands electronic group from the UK and they're amazing. It was really random because specifically "Garden" is pretty inspired by them. We were in London working at the studio that's like three hours outside of London, and they were randomly there at the studio. I was like, "What the fuck? This is crazy." And then I got to meet them, talked to them for a second, and that was really cool. I would say they're a big influence on this. I mean, other electronic acts, Ken Ishii. I like a lot of hard techno stuff. I mean, Daft Punk's first album Homework, I literally have studied the fuck out of that record. I'm obsessed with it, and I play remixes of that record every time. I always find a new remix that someone did in the nineties, and I'll play it every time I'm DJing. DJ Shadow was in a group for one album called Unkle, which is a trip hop kind of duo thing where they brought on a lot of artists like Thom Yorke from Radiohead to sing. That record Psyence Fiction really inspired me, honestly.

Sick. How important is it for you to continue creating all these compelling sounds and visuals as the album continues to roll out?

So I think it's going to be next year. I'm basically going to be working on the world of this all of next year. Even with Cat Heaven, I spent two years on that, and I basically worked on the world of that for the entire, maybe a year and a half after that record. I mean, in reality, all of 2018, I basically just promoted that record or did videos just kept working on it. And I think I'm going to do the same with this.

When I found out that you were putting out something new, I went on to Spotify and I got a notification that you had an album coming out. And literally, I think I scared my friends. I started freaking out, and they were like, "What?" And I was like, "You guys don't understand. Something crazy is happening right now." How has people's reaction been as you've been teasing the album and coming out with singles, and how has all of that been making you feel?

It's just like wow, because anyone who works with me will be the first one to tell you that the business side of this or the "We're trying to make a career," I am so not focused on that at all. I have an idea and I'm going to waste three years of my life on it. All I can do is make the best art I possibly can, or be like, "Hey, would 15-year-old me get inspired or be excited about this?" I've built my entire career off of that concept. If the money comes, or if the success comes based off of that, that's all. That doesn't even need to happen. As long as I can survive and try to execute ideas that I have, I think that's all that matters to me. So I guess with saying that, I think the thing that is the most beautiful about this whole thing is just I don't think this album has crazy buzz at all right now. I put out a song and a video and I'm like, "Oh, sick, a hundred thousand streams in the first week.” To me, that's good. Maybe the full record needs to come out for people to fully get it. I think the amazing thing is that I didn't really know if the fans from Cat Heaven would stay? Would they still check in? And to be honest with you, I think those are the main people. I even checked the backend of Spotify recently, and it was like, my fan base is 90%, 22, 23 years old. And I'm like, that's crazy.

Then that adds up!

Those kids from five years ago grew up, and those are the main, and almost only people listening to me, which is beautiful. I think that's amazing. That whole concept of some kids starting high school and now maybe are either graduating college or something like that where it's this huge life change. I do think this record will impact people in the ways that I was feeling when I started it, honestly. I really think it's going to hit in that way for people where they're going to be like, "Oh, Cat Heaven meant something to me at this time. I was going through this. I was becoming an adult," and then this record will be like, "Oh, I'm out of college. I had my first love maybe, and I lost that." I think the music's going to resonate in a big way with the people who stayed on board.

I feel like you touched on that more specifically in "Amberwood" where you are speaking about growing up. I'm excited for the whole thing to release and to see new people getting to experience your music.

Well, first off, I think this record has more for everyone, honestly, even than Cat Heaven, which is crazy. I think so many people are going to be like, this one's my favorite. Or this one's my favorite. Because it kind of goes over a lot of different sub genres or just tones through the record. I think that it's really a grower thing where people have to sit with the record for a second and the dust kind of has to clear a little bit.

Well, take it from me as somebody that was like, "oh my God, Cat Heaven's the best thing ever." And now also listening to this one, it's all that I've been talking about. I'm really excited for just the mass audience to be able to hear the album from beginning to end, because I really do think that it takes you on a journey and a deeper insight into your mindset. If they were fans of Cat Heaven, they're going to be fans of this one as well.

Yeah. Thank you.

Is there a message that you want your audience to take away from this album?

I think the main thing is just enjoy the moment and enjoy the smaller things in life. We're all in the big race or whatever to do something with our lives and make some sort of impact. But I think more now than ever, the moments spent with people you love or the things you care about matter so much because of how fast everything is. I think the other thing is don't give up hope. I think it's an optimistic record.

I feel like people will definitely take all of that, and you can hear it through your sound and the songs on this album. But, I guess I have one more question left. So I want to talk about plans for touring and performing, and if you have anything in the works.

I don't want to say it too much, but the first half of next year.

Sick so soon. And are you excited about it?

I mean, I've been dreaming about it. The last show I ever did was a fucking nightmare.

Really?

It was a festival show and nothing worked. The line on "Amberwood" where I say "I had dreams of playing Coachella" or whatever. I don't think Coachella's the end all be all for me, but obviously when I was a kid, I was like, "Oh, I want to play shows and everything." I actually had a dream of me playing Coachella, and it actually went terribly wrong. This was three years ago or something, and it was just like, oh, the mic doesn't work and you're trying to plug in your phone. I don't know if I'm crazy, but I feel like other artists have this dream where they're trying to perform, but the mic won't turn on.

It's like Grimes' set.

I literally had that where I had this festival gig at the end of 2019. It was my last show and nothing was working. We literally got the mic working in the last five minutes. I performed two songs, with no in-ears. I couldn't hear the track. I just performed, went to the crowd, sang it, and then left. And that was literally the last show I played. So I have that dangling over me, and I'm like, fuck that. I've always loved live shows for what I think I can do with it. I actually don't love going to see live music that much. I don't go to shows very often other than DJ stuff, because I just have to be a really big fan to be fully in it, or it has to be a really energetic show. Either going to go see ASAP Rocky where everyone's jumping— that's obviously really fun for me. Or I have to go see My Bloody Valentine, where I'm just kind of obsessed and mesmerized. I have so many ideas for what I think the live show could be. I've been thinking about it for five years, so it's going to be easy for me. I think as soon as this album's out, I'm going to start working on it.

I feel like everyone will be really, really excited. Especially people in New York. I feel like so many people will come out for that.

Music

You’ll Never Guess DJ_Dave’s Next Move

Angelina Hazzouri — Before we get into this new remix, how did you get started making music with code?

DJ_Dave — I got started when I was in college, actually. I was taking random classes, trying to figure out what I wanted to do after I had switched my major from fashion. I was doing a bit of basic web development coding, and I discovered that I really enjoyed it. So I ended up taking a class in live coding, and we learned Sonic Pi, which is a live coding environment that I've been using ever since. I knew right away that it was something I was really obsessed with.

I graduated into COVID, so I had a year to just hang around and figure it out, honestly. I had a job—I was fully going in another direction. I didn't fully accept this as my career fate until a year after that. And then I realized this is something I really love and something that other people seem to enjoy discovering with me. So I thought, let me just take a leap of faith and just do this going forward.

That's so cool. Did you play instruments before, or did you kind of just discover [making] music through coding?

I did, I grew up playing instruments. I would jump around—I would take lessons in one instrument for about a year and then would be like, “I want to play something else!”

I never really produced anything though—I just enjoyed music and then discovering live coding and was like, “Oh, this is a kind of production structure that I actually really like. Wow.” I feel like what's cool about this is it's obviously your art, but it's heavily centered around technology.

What is your relationship to technology and how has that played a part in everything?

My relationship to technology is honestly, like, so weird. [laughs]

Obviously, I love certain areas of technology, and I'm very much at this intersection of art and technology, but I just think that it can be such a daunting genre of things. New technologies are really intimidating. It's like a whole new entity to learn how to communicate with.

I think a lot of times, it can steer people in the wrong direction or make them excited about something. I've just always tried to take the functionality of certain technologies and tools at face value and be like, at its core, what can this do? And how does it fit into my life and my work? And I've just kind of gone from there. It's really hard for me to back a new technology, honestly. Really? Yeah. My relationship to technology is interesting. It literally feels like a relationship. [laughs] There are certain things that I like to compromise on and certain things that I win on. So it's, you know, figuring out where we fit together.

Yeah, that sounds like a relationship. It's interesting because so much of what you do is dependent on technology. For everyone else, I feel like there's this whole conversation about whether AI will take over our jobs—but you kind of embrace that.

Yeah. I mean, AI is [pauses]... there are a lot of really obvious dangers of it. Those are what I think of first when I think of AI. Like there are a lot of really bad use cases of AI that we're already seeing, but they’re at face value. It's a really useful tool when used in good ways—like when it's used for making art in a way that's not taking other people's. Using it for unique output. AI is also helpful when it’s used to better our practices in certain areas. For example, I'm collaborating with an AI artist for this “infinite remix” release, but that's really the only time I've dabbled in AI so far. So, it’s like, you know, I'm treading lightly.

I'm super interested to hear more about the infinite remix with Dadabots—I don't even know what to ask because I don't fully understand it. So what can you tell me about it?

That's like the most valid question ever. [laughs] I fully sat in a workshop with my two friends who made this and they explained everything about their process,and I’m still not totally sure how it works. But basically they are fine artists / musicians, and they’ve been developing their AI tools for years. They’re known for a live stream they’ve had running since 2018, which is possibly the longest running YouTube live stream ever and it’s constantly producing unique content.

Oh my God?

High level overview — their AI model is trained on what certain genres sound like, for example, the drum patterns or vocal melodies a genre would use. And so their live stream that’s been running for 6 years has been constantly spitting out a long, long version of a death metal song

Oh my God.

Yeah. I always thought they were super cool ever since we met on my university tour, and I knew I wanted to collaborate when we met. When it came time for Naive to come out, it seemed really right to collaborate with them, and I asked them, “What if you just use the same model that you have? What if you just give it the stems of my song “Naive” and we just start a live stream that remixes it for however long?”

That’s insane, I can’t wait to stream the remix. When “Naive" originally came out, you did the whole thing on Instagram making it look like your account got hacked, which was so sick.

Thank you.

I also feel like it's low-key a risk to make it look like your Instagram got hacked. What was the thinking behind that? Were you nervous at all that people were going to report your Instagram for being hacked?

Yes! Actually, I got my Instagram taken down for a little—it's so funny, dude—because yeah, I knew that there were risks associated. I was like, a lot of people are going to think this is real. I lost a few hundred followers, but I also gained a few hundred new ones. I just know that honestly, there's that element of shock value.

The whole concept was that I want people to genuinely question the origins of everything that I was about to put out for the next couple of weeks and question if it's safe, if it's me. I wanted to instill doubt in people about my motives or whose motives are behind all of it.

Never let them know your next move.

Never let them know my next move. I made sure I was really careful to drop hints as much as I could, because I knew it was going to be a puzzle—something that people could solve. It was actually so crazy because after I posted my first Instagram—the one that really got people—a couple of people in my Discord immediately solved the whole thing.

From one post? They know you too well.

I know, they immediately got it. They were like, “She's releasing a song called ‘Naive’ on August 29th.” It was crazy.

What do you think you'll do after this project with Dadabots? Do you think this will be a series?

After this phase, I'm going to be going into this phase of transparency and cybersecurity. I want to have cybersecurity, with a much more trustworthy vibe.

Because if my last release was all about being sketchy and mysterious and almost malicious, I want the next phase to be all about being transparent.Using technology only for good, having accessible products that people can interact with—that sort of thing.

There's obviously going to be music and then outside of that, there will be projects that have more of an honest identity, which I'm excited about.

That sounds so cool. It sounds like you're building a world, if that makes sense. I feel like what you do obviously transcends just music because it's not just music.

Yeah, it was with Josh [Kohno] and Sophia [Castillo] that we came up with this world-building idea. I've always been almost overwhelmed with the amount of things that I want to fit into my project because if I kept it to just music, I would literally be missing parts. I wouldn't be able to work with certain people that I want to, or I wouldn't be able to have this global perspective on things if I didn't expand it outside of music. So this just ended up being the perfect framework for me to include everyone that I wanted to.

This ended up being the solution, and it's been so perfect and fun.