You have two daughters. Has being a mother changed your feelings about the industry? I guess, when you hear anti-pornography ‘advocates’ they always say reductionist things like, ‘Well, what if it was your daughter?’ You're a mother, and a porn director. So, what do you say to that?
Having daughters has increased my urge to address the problem of sex education. They are why I started The Porn Conversation with my husband Pablo. We have been working to provide parents and teachers with the tools they need to talk to teenagers about pornography. The website is full of practical, useful guides to encourage parents to talk to their kids about what they are going to see online; to tell them that it’s normal to be curious, but what they are going to see is a performance of sex and not what real sex is actually like; that a lot of the people they see in the films are not representative of the average body and that you shouldn’t treat women the way they are treated in a lot of the porn on the free tube sites.
The problem we have right now is that good, useful sex education is lacking, pretty much everywhere. We know that a huge percentage of schools are not providing adequate sex education. At no point in a child's education does anyone teach them about consent, which seems pretty important, no? Our kids aren’t oblivious to sex—they hear about it from the society around them and go straight to Google to find answers. And unfortunately, pretty much every time you type something sex-related into a search engine, you’ll be greeted by something like PornHub where you'll be bombarded with a lot of degrading, disrespectful sex or kink which doesn’t always appear to be consensual. We can't stop kids from finding these sites, so instead of ignoring it, let's educate them. By acknowledging porn, it immediately becomes less shameful and opens up a dialogue, which leads to healthy, active learning.
Porn is always going to exist, so giving kids the tools to be critical and aware of what they’re watching is unbelievably important. They should be able to differentiate between the types of porn and also understand what respectful, equal sex is that consenting adults can enjoy. When they are old enough, they will see that certain porn can promote gender equality, intimacy, diversity, affirmative consent, safety, pleasure and sexual freedom and exploration. By learning to distinguish between different types of sex they see around them, kids will develop much healthier attitudes towards sex and relationships. By having open and honest conversations, they’ll have the opportunity to discuss their feelings, communicate their sexual desires and be happier people for it!
Do you feel like you have to spend a lot of time defending yourself for working in the porn industry? Both as a woman, and a feminist.
I definitely did at the beginning of my career and I definitely still do. Often people are still more offended that I am a feminist than a pornographer. People are bothered by my feminist perspective—they don't want me to 'touch their porn' and don't want to acknowledge that a lot of the mainstream porn can be sexist. The films that persist with gender role stereotyping, and portray male pleasure as more important than female. The scene typically unfolds through the male gaze and the cumshot seems to be mandatory to end the scene. The female character is being used to satisfy others, but not themselves.
It's funny because some people don't think that I'm ‘enough’ of a feminist, and of course, I can not please everyone. But I think there is something interesting happening within the movement at the moment. We each approach feminism in our own way, and obviously it is constantly growing and expanding, but it seems that now our feminism is suddenly under intense scrutiny and the purview of a legion of judgemental people looking to police and find faults in other women’s actions. It is undeniable that because I'm a woman who is vocal about what I dislike in the industry and because I'm pushing to have an impact, that I will attract a lot of criticism. I don't see half of the criticism I receive being given to male LA studio owners, who by the way, have done nothing to change a thing.
There is still some backlash against feminist pornographers because we live in a society that is often sex negative, especially towards women, and there is still a lot of confusion over exactly what ‘feminist porn’ is.
So, what is it for you?
For me, feminist porn reclaims a genre that has traditionally been seen exclusively as the purview of men. It's made by feminist directors who directly inject their feminist values into the films. Women have leading roles behind the camera as directors, producers, art directors, directors of photography, etc. making active decisions about how the film is produced and presented, and the stories are told through the female gaze. Feminist porn creates a sex positive space for women to reclaim their sexuality, pleasure and desires. Women are shown with sexual agency, owning their pleasure. Men and women are treated as sexual collaborators, not as objects or machines. The films promote role equality and there is no gender stereotyping, which is ultimately harmful for both men and women.
In the films, the culture of consent is paramount. There is never any simulation of coercion, pedophilia or abuse. There is no depiction of aggressive violent sex or rape scenes (not to be confused with BDSM practices). Diversity is key and the films push the representation of human sexuality and identity, showing the diverse ways of desiring and having sex. Marginalised groups are represented without being fetishized or categorized.
Feminist porn is so important because we need to show the world that female pleasure matters. Not because male pleasure doesn't matter, but because we've been watching a type of porn that completely ignores women's sexuality for too long. And it’s important to understand that porn has the power to liberate! It doesn’t have to be a negative part of our society. We can create porn where people can see themselves in those films, to see the sex they have, to be inspired, become educated and receptive to the huge range of different sexualities out there. And most importantly, they don't need to be exposed to one version of porn that teaches them toxic values.
Within the feminist movement itself, I think there's a divide between women who like porn, and others who feel it’s, as a whole, ‘un-feminist.’ I, personally, when it comes to feminism, don't think there's a ‘right’ or ‘wrong’ way to do it—it's a personal thing. But what's feminism to you? And how does that affect what you do, working in an industry that has a lot of—I don't want to say ‘un-feminist,’ but misogynistic tendencies?
For me, feminism is the belief that women and men should have equal rights and opportunities in all aspects of life. It is sisterhood and it's about female sexual liberation. Supporting another woman's right to do whatever she wants—however different another's woman expression may be from yours. Women should be free to express and experience sexuality however they choose to do so.
In terms of the divide between feminists on the porn debate, there are two concepts that many anti-porn activists tend to disregard: firstly, women are sexual beings and they also get aroused by sex on screen. Secondly, many women in the porn industry are empowered and elevated by what they do. That is one of the ways they choose to use their freedom. They encounter situations they don't like for sure and some days they might not feel like going to work and having sex on camera, but that is no different than any other job in any other industry. There is this wrong idea that porn (and prostitution) is always exploitative for women, which isn't true. Sex work exclusionary feminists take all autonomy away from female sex workers and feed the stereotype that women do not have their own sexuality or desires. They conflate sex work with sex trafficking and perpetuate the stereotype that sex workers are victims or are driven to a demeaning lifestyle by a damaged history. Do they ever speak to sex workers in the industry about their experiences? Do they ever speak to those sex workers who have chosen this profession because they enjoy it, or because they want to make money? No, they don't, because it wouldn't fit with their narrative.
In terms of the industry, it's true that the word ‘porn’ has been corrupted by sexist porn. Feminist porn makers often criticise mainstream porn, not to shame people who enjoy it or star in it, but to question and highlight that extreme porn has become the norm—that extreme and often violent porn has become mainstream. That is due to the misogyny in society as a whole. Objectification is not an inherent product of the medium of explicit films itself. The actual definition of pornography is ‘printed or visual material containing the explicit description or display of sexual organs or activity, intended to stimulate sexual excitement.’ Porn doesn't have to objectify women—sexist people choose to do so. The medium of explicit films can be used as a tool to portray healthy, consensual, happy sex between equals. Pornography as a medium can be used in a positive or negative way as everything else. It can definitely be a tool for women’s sexual expression and for people in general to get rid of taboos.
My mission in life is to spread the joy of sex-positive feminism. I am advocating for female pleasure and have been working over the years to change porn, improve sex education and change unhealthy attitudes towards sex.
What do you think is the difference between female-directed porn and male-directed porn? Both for the actors on set, but also, from the audience's perspective?
In my experience, in terms of the audience perspective, when it's female-directed there are less close up, gynecological shots. This seems basic, but if there's a male performer on my set I also include his head in the shots. So much male directed porn is close ups of the female, her vagina, and the male performer is basically just a dismembered penis. It's quite odd. Myself and a lot of the female filmmakers who I admire are more concerned with capturing the whole feeling of sex—the passion and the pleasure, instead of a mechanical shoot of what it looks like.
When a woman is directing porn, she avoids displaying the woman as a spectacle or portraying her as a passive object of desire. We refuse to make the female body an object of a predatory gaze. When it comes to the performers, I can only speak from experience of what they have told me, but on my sets, it is mostly women and we have a big crew. This can make some male performers quite nervous who are used to small crews made up of solely men. But it’s a really nice, supportive and safe environment for the female performers who are used to being surrounded by men on set.
