Kali Uchis and Amaarae Prove Sad Girlz Need "Luv" too

She had just returned from the Kiko Kostadinov show at Paris Fashion Week. “It was beautiful,” she said with a soft smile, an enticing gentleness that mirrors her artistry, honed from years studying classical music, hosting radio shows in Paris, and being heavily involved in the musicality and lyricism of her work. Just days earlier, Oklou had hosted her own intimate shows in an inconspicuous Chinatown space in New York City. Guests ascended a slightly-too-small elevator—its deliberate slowness creating a hint of suspense—and arrived at a room bathed in soft pink and purple light. Floor cushions scattered through the space encouraged an intimate listening experience as Oklouunveiled the songs she’d been crafting over the past two years, offering a deeply personal and immersive performance.

What began as a planned thirty-minute conversation about her upcoming album stretched into an hour-long exploration of her work: processing life through song, the pursuit of artistic integrity, the magic of perfect loops, and her ongoing search for simplicity in both sound and expression.

“So, I’m going to try my best to talk about this,” she began, leaning in slightly. “When I talk about the songs and the album, there’s just so many feelings and thoughts I’ve been trying to put into words. It’s been one of the biggest challenges for me.”

She paused, then laughed lightly. “I make songs, and then when it comes to talking about them, I often get lost along the way. So, pardon me if that happens.”

The honesty of her admission added to her charm. “It’s an effort for me,” she explained. “Even in French, it’s hard for me to make sense of everything. So in English… my brain is like, agh, you know?”

Your single “friends and family” has been out for two weeks now! How does it feel “to be back”, as they call it and have released this song into the world after a period of away?

Yeah, it feels great. I've been waiting for that for a couple of months now, if not years. It's really nice for many reasons. I'm glad to get back in touch with my audience. I am happy that I finally can, after all these months of writing, I can release a bit of the creative pressure, even though it's still there because now we are working on the imagery and all the visuals. It's also a lot of work, but my main medium, which is music, it's all done. So it feels a little bit like a holiday with a bit of a paradox because I'm way busier than I've been over the last two years, but mentally, because I don't have that pressure over the music and all the creative stress, the business is actually comfortable.

There’s a line in the track, if I heard correctly, about lying in bed all day. So I was curious, what's your perfect day, lying in bed?

Love that question. I would take the time to actually watch movies during daytime because it's not something I do anymore. It's such a shame because when you watch movies at night, you fall asleep and movies deserve the actual focus and attention that you have throughout the morning or the afternoon. So, I really want to normalize watching movies during the daytime; it’d be great for all of us. Anyway, I would do that…I would probably sleep, of course. I would probably read, take the time to read and listen to podcasts. You know, nothing crazy. Eat some blueberries. 

Thinking back to that feeling of release, you posted last week on your Instagram account about how “friends and family” has to do with performance, and I also remember also at the New York show, you mentioned how you felt like you could just be human in that space– you didn't have to just put on a persona. Could maybe elaborate more on that? On your being able to be yourself versus having to put on a performance?

The other day, I sent the music video to my family on WhatsApp group chat, and they asked, well first, obviously, they're all French, and they don't understand a word of the song since it’s all in English. So they've asked, “What’s this about?” And that was when I actually put my finger on that performance thing. Basically, the song starts with me relating a memory I have of one of my teachers in my life from when I was very young. This teacher was always trying to push me to be more emotionally impressive with my classical music, so I began to see it as a challenge like “Oh, you think I'm callous and cold? Watch this, I'm going to put tears in everybody's eyes”.

So, I started performing to emotionally move people, but for the wrong reasons. Now, I'm trying to understand where in lies the performance that is my own. It's like a conversation with myself I guess where I'm trying to figure out what path I really want to pursue with only my own critique which is almost impossible, but I'm doing the questioning.

You shared via Instagram caption that you hadn’t posted anything on social media for a while because you felt like you weren't meeting the expectations of your job. What made you feel that way? 

Well, to be fair, first of all, I think this caption was a bit of a joke because I don't really feel like I haven't met people's expectations in the sense that it's okay for me to take my time creatively.  

I think I'm not there to fulfill anybody's expectations. It's art. There's no recipe, whatever. But also purely from a social media perspective, I’ve been restraining myself so that I could be active during the writing process.  Which is fine because I’ve been on social media ever since I could. It's been more than 10 years, and it's always been a habit for me to post as I've always been very vocal on the Internet. And recently, I think for the first time, I've been a bit more distanced, also because I cannot… just like having that phone in my hands, was hurting my eyes more and more. 

Sorry, there's a mosquito.

It's okay.

I also felt I felt like people didn't really care about the flowers in my garden I would post on my Instagram story. People would be like, “Girl, where's the music?” which didn’t make me mad at all. I understood. It’s all jokes. But that's why I wrote that caption, basically.

It seems like you have a healthy line of understanding why you do what you do creatively and looking at things through your lens without the perspectives or opinions of others blinding you. With that said, how do you measure your own success?

I think it's a very interesting question, but also really hard because there are so many layers to the feeling of success. There's the financial success, there is the numbers success, which is connected to financial, obviously. But when I say numbers, it's the actual numbers or streams or views or followers. And then the one that I might be a bit cliché, but it's really true in my In my recent life. But the success that I prefer is far from the numbers. It’s a much more intimate feeling that I've done what I was meant to do.

Like very personal.

Whether it's commercially a success or not, is so disconnected from my personal gauge. Of course, when both conditions are met, commercial success and my personal feeling of accomplishment, it's amazing. It's not It's not making me grow as an artist, not numbers wise, I'm not interested. 

Mhm.

It's such a privilege to be able to say it because obviously, like everyone else, I need to make money to live. But also, I don't think I can do anything with my music just to pay my rent. I'm not ready to give up on my artistic integrity. And the older I grow, the more this feeling is confirmed in my head. The worst thing is don’t have full control, the decisions don’t resonate with your heart at all, and then it goes wrong. And then you're like, well, what did we learn? Nothing. We learned nothing from that.

What about “failure”?

And failure? Failure for me is a bit of a hard word because I'd rather say... I think failure is more, well I would say, it’s an attempt. When you are learning, when you are trying, you cannot be failing because in some way, you are still moving ahead. 

I really love, too, what you said about your successes, being so intimately personal to you; the feeling of when you've been able to do exactly what you felt you wanted to do, and it all came together. 

What journey did this project take you on? What emotions were you channeling or unraveling, or processing? 

Many different moments of this past two and a half years– that's how long it took me to put the pieces together.. At the beginning, I was convinced I wanted to do a more like a rave-ish album without drums at all, but then I started adding the drums on my stuff and writing songs with guitar.

I love that song. The bird one.

Thank you!

But yeah, I think this album has many questions and not many answers. It's filled with directions and attempts also, irregularities. It's a depiction of, I guess, what also happened in my life and also me trying to guess what happened - putting it all together.

I think all of your songs, maybe there are some voice notes and things that are in French, but for the most part, I feel like they're all in English. Does that allow you to try and process things that don't make sense to you in French, or is it just your method?

English, for me, was a way to take the pressure away when it comes to lyrics and language.  I think I wouldn't allow myself to write things in French because my appreciation of French poetry is so high, and I know that I would never, never meet these expectations myself because I'm a musician first and lyricism follows. It doesn't mean that I don't care if I do something average. I really care, but at least this way I can free myself from feeling self-conscious or critical when I write. 

I love how you’ve found a way to create in your own manner with as much respect as possible. 

Oh, yeah. I've tried as much as possible.

I noticed you're back working with CaseyMQ. I'm sure you guys have never stopped working together. What's it like working with someone you’re so comfortable with who can help you unpack your life into song? 

Casey is amazing to work with because he understands my vision. He's the only person that basically can help me on every aspect of the music from lyrics to melody, elaborating on certain parts, just everything. He can, I think, he can pull out any texture of sound I want, and everything I cannot do, he can do. I don't think I'll ever find someone like that ever to write my songs with him and I'm very grateful to have met him. 

How has your work together evolved especially for this project?

For this project sonically, there is one common ground connecting the majority of the songs and that is this idea of finding the perfect loops. This idea came from my listening and admiration of artists like Chuck Person’s with his Ecco Jams and Lorenzo Siemi who I’ve been listening to for a long time who also had those ideas at their forefront.

So instead of elaborating on melodies and harmonies that change and that are patterns that are longer in time, the songs on this album were based on singular patterns that I really liked and then we thought okay let's try to make a song with that. 

That’s really cool to hear because now we can all listen for those loops. I feel like things of that nature are what make songs so enjoyable to listen to. 

Yea, it’s like the song can go on forever.

Continuing on the idea of collaboration, for this project you have a song with Underscores! How did that come about? 

April (of Underscores), she's blown my mind with her previous body of work – the richness of it, the way she masters her productions, and she's doing it all by herself! She's some sort of genius to me. I think I just really trusted her ability to work with anything I sent over to her plus I knew she would bring something more even than her vocals to the track. And she did.

And a song with Bladee! Tell me about that one? Did these collabs happen sort of organically?

So there was nothing organic about these collabs, I'm afraid, because I actually don’t think I've ever met either IRL. [laughs]

Or actually, I met Bladee probably eight years ago or nine years ago. We were both starting our careers, the SoundCloud era and then he did what he did with all these Swedish boys.

Drain Gang?

Yeah, exactly! Those guys like Young Lean and their producers as well, obviously, have always been an influence and an inspiration for all these years, so I've always hoped that one day I could make a song with them to honor the connection I personally have with them. 

I've sent a message, I think, to several people from Drain Gang and Bladee answered positively. So, I sent him a track and he was into it, and that's how it happened! I'm super grateful that he accepted because I guess he must be receiving so many messages... 

Well, no, actually, I didn't send it out of blue. He did say once, “Oh, it would be nice to do something together”. So it wasn't totally like out of the blue

I think the people are going to lose their minds when they hear the songs! It’s also it a bit like you said, nice when you make these decisions, you can come together and it's greater than you. It's really satisfying. 

Yeah, exactly. Super exciting. 

This project is currently called choke enough, but since it doesn’t come out until February, do you think that will change? I ask because when your team sent over the album for pre-listening, they said some aspects might still change.

I think I’ll keep it, even though I thought about it recently I was like, “hmm, do I want to change it?”, but I don't have other ideas, so I don't think it's going to change.  

I wanted to know, and you can also just leave it as that, but what does that title mean? From my interpretation, it's almost like when you just go through so much, but it doesn’t seem like it’s end so you’re asking yourself when is it enough?

So I guess I have many different things to say. First thing is that there is a song titled “choke enough” on the album that I just love so much. I was really hyped?  Hyped is that,  can I say that?

Haha, yeah, yeah. Like really excited? 

I'm really imitating Americans, with that one, with words I don’t even understand. Hyped [laughs]. But yea, I was very excited about that song and I had all these ideas of titles, but none of them were good enough. So at some point, Casey, again, was like, “Well, if you like “choke enough” that much, you could just call the album that.” It took me a bit of time to solidify that choice because I knew that the phrase doesn't really mean anything in English. It's not something you say.

Yeah, I know. Like what is choke enough? You know?

It’s kind of just gibberish that I sang on the song and it just stayed there. I also like the fact that it doesn't really mean anything and it becomes brutal proof that I don’t always master what I’m trying to say. 

Mhm, mhm. 

Also, people can, as you just did, try to put their own meaning to it which is always something I appreciate. It’s the search for the drama, which I was leaning towards myself and I lost myself a little bit. 

How so?

There’s this feeling of looking for sensations and the idea of being a bit overwhelmed with all of these different paths and not knowing which one to take. The album for me is like a messy bedroom.

The everyday struggle. 

Exactly. That's exactly what this song is about. It’s asking, “how far am I ready to go in order to feel alive?”  The way you are seeking the drama and getting into these situations, but on the other hand, how are you going to find fulfillment in a more simple life? Not the super sexy aspects of life, but also learning to value very accessible, and tangible moments in life.

There is a lyric in your song “blade bird” that I mentioned earlier about a romantic relationship, “What can I say? Knew it right away… you are what you are and I feel like a cage…I'll be the one who ends up getting hurt”. Does that tie back into this idea of lengths one goes to feel alive?

Yeah, “blade bird” is literally about this habit that I'm seeing in so many women in general, in my own family and in myself as well. A pattern where you fall in love with people because they represent a sense of freedom, but for me, truly love and relationships are about being able to rely on somebody. So the bird is, for me, a nice image because well, it's a bird, and you cannot put it in a cage. I mean, you could, but that would be pretty sad.

Exactly.

It's like… It's illegal. 

It’s like why can’t we be free, but be free together? I don't know.  

Be like, respectful, responsible, reliable.