For Lovers

So if you’re feeling lost and need some direction or simply looking for a laugh, lend an afternoon to “The Ex-Girlfriend of My Ex-Girlfriend Is My Girlfriend.” Read our exclusive interview with Court and Wroten below.

Check out more of Maddy Court and the book here. 

Can you tell us a little about your backstory? How did you two meet?

Maddy — We met on Instagram, where else? We became friends in the DMs and then Kelsey ended up illustrating a story I wrote. Cannonball is one of my favorite graphic novels and I tell everyone to read it. We had lots of small overlaps, but we've only met in person a handful of times.

Kesley — Maddy basically covered this one. I think becoming mutuals online is the first step to friendship/any relationship these days. A few years ago, saying something like ‘we've only met in person a few times’ might mean you don't know someone. But there are lots of fully electronic interactions, especially in the last year, that shouldn't be judged as less-than — especially when you consider how small communities can be or how many people do long-distance relationships and friendships. Human connection is hard! See *entire book*. Also, I'm shy! So I have a vested interest in digital interaction.

What was the process like while creating this book? Did you two always agree on the advice given? How does that dynamic work?

Maddy — Kelsey made all the artwork and I wrote all the text. We aren't the most active collaborators, though we did choose the guest experts together. We also went through all the question submissions in one long, 5-hour phone call. It was really helpful to have Kelsey as a sounding board, though she chose a lot of questions because they sounded fun to illustrate. When I'm picking questions, I look for questions that are genuine and interesting to read. I need the situation to congeal and make sense. Kelsey just likes dyke drama.

Kesley — I totally trust Maddy's chops when she gives advice. She's top-notch at it. No comment on me loving drama that doesn't involve me. We ended up choosing questions that were crucial, and/or repeated. We had several hundred submissions, and in addition to finding questions that got to the core of a quintessential issue, we gravitated towards those that were asked a lot of times in a lot of different ways. Everyone is trying to tapdance in a minefield of other people's expectations. Maddy was always great at getting to the core of what was really going on.

Why do you feel it was crucial to make a “queer relationship handbook” for women and people of marginalized genders in 2021?

Maddy — Crucial is a heavy word for my work. I want the things I make to be human and joyful. My dream for ‘Ex-Girlfriend’ was for it to be a book that would sit with you and keep you company, as corny as that sounds.

Kesley — I agree with Maddy here. Our goal was to make something fun and sincere and heartwarming. A warm blanket book, and one that can be shared with friends. A friend of mine said they brought a copy with them to the beach and everyone took turns reading from it. Lots of enjoyable commiserating and tales of regrettable exes were shared. This was how I experienced Maddy's zine for the first time too. At a friend's house, leisurely reading aloud one afternoon.

What was important to consider while capturing the distinct yet widely diverse lesbian aesthetic through your illustrations?

Kesley — I love the idea of me capturing a "lesbian aesthetic." Contrary to that one episode of ‘The L Word’ where they scope out Lara the 'soup chef' for Dana, there isn't one way to look like a lesbian. Lesbians are diverse, so I wanted to reflect that in my drawings. Though I did want to include some tongue-in-cheek references to lesbian paraphernalia, especially in the doodles on the cover. Docs, mullets, chapstick. I also included some references to Maddy's memes — most notably her ‘old sea dyke’ possum and Himalayan salt lamps. To play devil's advocate with myself, there can be a component of sartorial signaling in the way queer people dress, so I don't want to completely dismiss ‘lesbian aesthetic’ as being a very important thing that does exist and will continue to exist and evolve. An interesting opinion piece in the NYT I came across a while back talked about the difficulty of parsing signals in fashion right now. It was called something like ‘Hipsters Broke My Gaydar’ with a great little illustration by Sophia Foster-Dimino, another queer illustrator whose work has influenced me a lot.

As a self-proclaimed ‘meme artist’ with an Instagram account dedicated to niche lēsbian content, how have you seen social media impact the way queer people interact and express themselves?

Maddy — Social media is an accessible and easy way to share parts of yourself. I believe the internet enables real community building and love. At the same time, there's also a lot of censorship and shadowbanning that particularly affects people of color, sex workers, and activists. I'm often depressed by how people treat each other online. Social media is bleak, but there are some rays of light.

Growing up, what did you look to for queer female representation?

Maddy — Growing up, I liked Tamora Pierce books and Tegan and Sara. I wasn't actively looking for queer representation, though. I didn't identify as gay in high school, I'm not even sure I knew what a lesbian was. I didn't have my own computer and this was before smartphones, so I was pretty limited in my research. There was a boy at my high school — I'm not sure if he was openly gay or not, but he was definitely flamboyant and I remember feeling so afraid for him all the time. I was really isolated from queerness and the world until I went away to college.

Kesley — Like Maddy, I came out ‘late’ a few months after I graduated high school. I am also from the Midwest, so it simply wasn't talked about. There were a few kids I grew up with that were gossiped about as she mentioned. But that was it. Years later, while having drinks with a couple of popular kids from high school who came out post-grad, I found out I was one of those kids! Which I found extremely flattering, though if I had known at the time, I probably would have been mortified. I'm so glad times have changed in this regard. Also, it's interesting how subtly vibes register because I wasn't even aware. Then, one fateful day, I rented ‘Chicago’ with my cousin. BOOM! Life-altering. As far as media I sought out in my late teens when I was starting to suspect I might be gay, I turned to none other than ‘Xena’ and ‘Buffy.’ Both of which I make required viewing for anyone to date me. Which makes me… single. Oh! And a movie I used to watch almost every night before bed — and thus fell asleep to its DVD menu music — was ‘D.E.B.S’ directed and written by Angela Robinson. She directed/wrote/produced several episodes. of ‘The L Word’ as well.

What other media have you been into lately? Have you been watching ‘The L Word’ reboot?

Maddy — Is there a new season? It's weird that you asked this. A few nights ago I couldn't sleep because I was thinking about the scene where Shane describes the baby's heartbeat as horses running across the beach. It's such an inexplicable, confusing thing to say and everyone acts like it's so beautiful and profound. Also, the scene when Alice loses her mind and becomes verbally abusive at a staff meeting because Kamala Harris turned down a spot on her show. I just finished ‘Hacks’ on HBO and rewatched the first episode immediately. I love Desiree Akhavan's work. I read a lot of fiction and I loved ‘Detransition, Baby’ by Torrey Peters and ‘Real Life’ by Brandon Taylor. My friend Carrot Quinn has a memoir coming out called ‘The Sunset Route’ and I read it in two sittings.

Kesley — I watched the first season of the reboot, but I fell off. However, I'm an avid watcher of any movie in which a lesbian has at least one line. I have a list on Letterboxed if you want it. It's about 377 movies long, all of which I've seen. Some are great, most are absolute garbage. I'd call it a hobby, but I think it crossed that line a long time ago.

My girlfriend read your zine a few years ago and said that you helped her ‘realize that lesbians weren’t actually extinct.’ What do you have to say to young/newer lesbians who may now be discovering themselves through your work?

Maddy — That's so wonderful to hear. Cheers to your girlfriend! My best advice is to stay away from people who are uncomfortable with your joy and evolution. Same with people who want to pigeonhole you into one role. Always keep ‘em guessing. Also, you don't have to relate to anyone on ‘The L Word.’ Oh and don't fight with people online! It's never worth it.

Kesley — Haha, yeah, I think what that can be interpreted as is the word evolving. And how we choose to relate to it. Lesbian is a living word. It is growing and changing and becoming all the time. For instance, recently I've been exploring my gender identity and how I want to express it. I feel most comfortable with the pronouns they/she, and am fluid in my identification/expression of them depending on the day. So either, as a general rule, works for me. In the past not being in a strict 'woman+woman' relationship exempted you from using the word lesbian. That's just dumb and not true anymore. Obviously, lesbian means ‘from Lesbos’ if we use the most strict definition. Lots of people like ‘sapphic’ too with the same origin narrative. This is all to say, it's a symbolic 'from Lesbos' so it was always about applied meaning more than its literal interpretation. I really like the word personally, but I won't dump on anyone who doesn't.