Tyler, The Creator x slowthai

Maybe it’s slowthai’s signature grin that makes him so charming and relatable. Perhaps it’s his Charlie Chaplin-esque whimsicality that makes him the ideal conduit for communicating our collective anxiety and anger in a format that feels both fresh and easy. Or maybe it’s the music itself—at once lo-fi, aggressive, and no-filter, Ty’s songs and visuals are manufactured through his lens of new masculinity. This viewpoint thrives off Ty's ability to communicate emotion without regret, and process trauma with no shame. No matter who you are or where you're from, it’s likely that you can relate to what slowthai is putting out. Especially right now, aren’t we all trying to just feel okay amidst the endless turmoil?

Ty joins our Zoom call from a basement studio in his mom’s rural flat, where he lives permanently. It seemed like a no-brainer to link him with Tyler, the Creator, another unfiltered cultural curator who constantly challenges boundaries, particularly when it comes to notions of Black masculinity.

Below, Tyler and Ty talk about feeling okay in 2020, Bono and doing things your own way.

Left — Jacket by CAV EMPT, hoodie by LEVI'S SKATEBOARD

Right — Jacket by SLAM JAM (UN)CORPORATE UNIFORMS, hat by CP COMPANY

Tyler, the Creator—I’m a piece of shit, I owe you a verse, and yes.

slowthai—Yeah, yeah you are a motherfucker. Are you engaged?

TC—Me? No, what the fuck?

ST—What is this? How come you wear your ring on your ring finger?

TC—Because some idiot made a fucking rule saying, ‘Hey, if you put anything that’s gold, silver, whatever, on this specific finger it means you’re married.’ Everyone, for some reason, followed that fucking rule and it’s dumb as fuck. I got a nice ring and I wanted it on this specific finger.

ST—Propose to me, man, come on.

TC—You fucking sicko, where you at?

ST—I’m at the yard, man, I’m just in the studio.

TC—You in London?

ST—No, Frankton. When are we making something?

TC—I want to come to London and lock in for two or three days. We can make whatever, it could be music, it could be a sex tape, it could be...

ST—You got to lube me up, man.

TC—Whoa, whoa, whoa, pause.

ST—No, real men don’t say pause, man. You know what I’m saying? I ain’t trying to pause, I’m comfortable in my sexuality.

TC—I’ll pause everything.

ST—Wow, why?

TC—How do you switch this camera? This is where I’m at right now.

ST—Where’s that?

TC—Northwest Washington.

ST—Why are you there?

TC—No reason, I just didn’t want to be in LA so I come here when I want to see trees and ducks and shit, it’s really pretty.

ST—You’re going to pull a ‘Little Pimp,’ innit?

TC—Dude that’s cap, I didn’t even really watch the video. I didn’t watch the video in full because I was just cringing so hard. This year’s kind of wild because every hypothetical you could think of is very possible.

ST—Yeah, the way the world is happening around you.

TC—Really funny. Of course, this year sucks but I find humor in it that every hypothetical you could think of is very possible.

ST—I can’t believe none of it, everything that keeps happening, I’m like, 'Is this even a reality we are living in?' I’m feeling like this is some bullshit. It’s good, it’s like watching a sitcom.

TC—Yeah, it’s like a really, really detailed comedy. The writers just keep on trying to up last season, it’s interesting.

ST—What’s next though?

TC—In the world or for me?

ST—The world, we’ll get to you in a sec but your prediction is what I want.

TC—I have no idea! That’s why I came to Washington to just look at ducks and trees and not really be on my phone or just talk about other stuff for the next two days because it’s a lot. I feel like it’s weird. I think people could read that and be like, ‘privilege,’ and make someone feel guilty. Sometimes I think about like if this was 1974 or something, whatever’s going on in a town in Montana and I live in LA, I wouldn’t really know about it because I’m focused on what’s going on in my city. Not even really my state but just my city. Now, because of the internet, we know everything that’s going on in Montana, New York, fucking India, every fucking place. It’s so much information being fed to us. Not that it’s a bad thing, you should be aware, but it being so much and you’re supposed to care about everything and people will try to make you feel guilty about not doing enough, blah, blah, blah, blah. I’m like, 'Man, fuck this, I’m going to go get a canoe for a few days, listen to some music and not worry about shit.' That shit stresses you and it ages you and you’ll be gray and end up getting fucking cancer just thinking about everything. I’m off it.

Left — Trousers by DRIES VAN NOTEN, shoes by ROA

Right — Vest by STONE ISLAND SHADOW PROJECT, trousers and rib socks by NEIGHBOURHOOD, hat by CRAIG GREEN, boots by MONCLER

ST—The fucking woods is good, man. That’s what fucked this world. Earlier I’d done an interview and it was this lady from Austria and she was interviewing and there was a terrorist attack. I didn’t hear about none of that, there was like four people who got shot and died or whatever. In England it’s just posts about fucking Donald Trump and Biden or whatever, I’m like, 'How the fuck did I miss anything else going on? How is my focus, and I’m not even in America, Joe Biden and fucking Donald Trump?' I was like, 'I want Little Pimp.'

TC—Yeah, it’s the weirdest thing. Even that, your time and day is consumed with what’s going on over here, which everything has a ripple effect and that will affect everything else in the world. Maybe you just want to go get a cup of coffee next door. You probably just want to drink your coffee, just for a day but then you try to do that and people will make you feel guilty. Some people aren’t privileged [enough] to do that and some people don’t have that choice. It’s like bro, n---- I just want cream and sugar, and to drink my coffee for an hour.

ST—Even so, if you wasn’t privileged and you didn’t have the privilege, and then you work to get the privilege, and then you enjoy the fruits of your labor, how the fuck can you not enjoy it? Why should you feel guilty for enjoying something you worked to achieve anyway?

TC—Again, I don’t come from money or things like that, now that I’m able to experience certain things, sometimes... that’s the weirdest thing, to get on the other side and people are like, 'No, fuck that.' It’s such a weird thing, that’s a whole different conversation and I don’t even know if I’m able to articulate it without sounding like a dick. I don’t think I’m there yet where I’m able to articulate that in the right way, maybe in a few years. I think in two years I’ll be able to articulate these thoughts in the right tone with the right vocabulary.

ST—You can’t ever win, you won’t ever win, no matter what. You can support every problem or you can be there.

TC—If money is a thing now with class and things, if everyone had the same amount of money, we would find something to hate each other on or have a competition with who has the biggest thumbs. Well if you have the smallest thumbs, we treat you like this. It never wins and we do that with skin tone now and we do it with height. We’ll never win as a species. With that said, for the time being, for the next three days, I’ll be looking at ducks and water.

ST—That’s what I’m trying. I’m trying to see something like that but I’m in the middle of a lockdown. I’m going to be in this fucking city—

TC—I’m so sorry that I, again, one of the darkest times of my life personally, from Tyler’s brain—my experience was in April during quarantine, when we were for real locked down, didn’t go out, didn’t see anyone. I live in a very populated area so I didn’t get to see people walking around and stuff. I went four days without seeing people until I went to grab a bite to eat. It was, I fucking hated it, I was losing my mind. I don’t like to sit on the couch and watch Netflix, I like being outside and I like when the sun is right here. I fucking hated it so I’m sorry that you have to be on lockdown again.

ST—I’m actually quite, I’m thriving right now. Even though it’s bullshit, life hasn’t stopped for me. I’ll still be going kickboxing and shit, still doing all that. I’m going to stay in but I’m not staying in, I’m going out, man. I’ve got my cross—I’ve got a motocross bike so I’m riding rather than fucking sitting in my house. If I feel, I’ll go to the locker, hit the bag and I’m fucking gone. I’m there all day, come back, have a bath, chill the fuck out and then do the same thing tomorrow.

TC—You motocross?

ST—Yeah, yeah.

TC—I saw a video of you but I didn’t know you, for real, was into it like that.

ST—I want a deal, that’s why I’m getting ready man. I’m trying to get ready for a fight, that’s what I want to do. I want to have this kickboxing shit on lock and I’m trying to smash something for now, man.

TC—Wow you kickbox, that’s fire.

ST—That’s what I’m saying. Motocross, that and football, and then just music at the moment.

TC—How long have you been kickboxing for?

ST—I’d done it when I was younger but then I started about two months ago now. I’m getting good, I’m getting my question mark kick. I’m getting my tornado kick, then I’ll worry about the roundabout.

TC—You would probably fuck me up.

ST—Yeah I would fuck you up.

TC—You would. I’m definitely faster than you.

ST—No man, we’ve got to race. I see you racing everybody and I’m like, 'No, this guy is not quick.' I’ll Usain Bolt your ass.

TC—Listen, we could set it up, we could put one of our houses on it.

ST—I’m not getting one. I’m still trying to get a house. I’ll bet you the house I’m buying and then we can run.

TC—We can put anything on it.

ST—What do you want? I’ll tell you what...

TC—I’m dusting your shit.

ST—I’ll tell you what, listen to this, I will bet you if I win, yeah, you have to do everything I ask for a year. For a year, you’ve got to do it. If I ask you to, if you got to bungee jump off the fucking Empire State, we’ll make it happen. If it’s fucking, I don’t know, some dumb shit, it’s got to happen. You state your claim, I’ll do it.

TC—You’ll be the sixth person that’s like, I’ll beat you, and then it’s like, 'Okay,' and then I’ll race you and you lose and then n----s is looking like, 'Uhhh...' It always happens like this. I think it’s cute.

ST—I’ll tell you what, I’m a cheap motherfucker but listen to this, I’ll win and you’re my bitch for a year.

TC—I think you want to date me.

ST—What?

TC—I think that’s what that is, I think you just want to date me. We can talk about that later but...

ST—I’m engaged, dummy, I’m actually engaged. I’m engaged.

TC—What’s his name?

ST—You twat. I’ve got a Katarina, man, she’s from Russia. She’s upstairs, she’s chilling.

TC—That’s nice.

ST—Yeah.

TC—It’s going to be weird when you tell her that I beat you with these legs, bro. Pause.

ST—Blah, blah, blah, it’s not a possibility. Hey, listen, name a place, name a date and we’ll do this.

TC—I got a house where I store, I got a bunch of dirt bikes and ATVs and shit, four-wheelers, next time you come to LA, you should definitely come by and see what it’s about.

ST—What, you got land?

TC—Yeah.

ST—Let’s go, brother, I’m ready. I’m ready.

TC—I can’t figure the dirt bike shit out because that shit is heavy but I love the four-wheeler. I love the ATV. I love that shit.

ST—I bought my first dirt bike. What have you got?

TC—I honestly don’t fucking know. I went in there and I was like, 'I like this, I like this, give me this.'

ST—A Banshee.

TC—It’s something, one of them is a Yamaha I think. I got a Suzuki. I couldn’t, if someone had a gun to my head right now and said tell me what you have, it’s a dub, I’m dead.

ST—When are you coming here then?

TC—I don’t know. I wanted to come out there and be a little hoe because I got some things out there, you feel me. They were like, they’re going on another lockdown. I’m like you fucking lying and then there you have it, the guy’s on another lockdown.

ST—It’s only a month, yeah, it’s a month, man. Come tomorrow, a month.

TC—A fucking month. Who knows, I hope we don’t go on another one out here in America, I really hope we don’t.

ST—If you get Biden you’ll go on lockdown, if you get Donald Trump it’s a free for all motherfucker, you’re running free.

TC—Yeah, I don’t... I haven’t been paying as much attention in the last few days as people make me think I should have. Hopefully that’s not true if Biden wins that we’re on another lockdown. I don’t know.

ST—I don’t know, man.

Left — Jacket by MONCLER, trousers by DRIES VAN NOTEN, balaclava by STONE ISLAND, chain SLOWTHAI'S OWN

TC—That’s pretty selfish of me but what’s wrong with being selfish?

ST—I think it’s fair, man, I’m fucking fed up with this shit. This guy could have, this dickhead could have done it, he could have done a lockdown a month ago and then we’d be in the position where it would be... because it’s going to be the same thing. At the end of this one, he’s going be like, 'Oh, well...' It don’t make sense, he’s locked everything down except for schools, schools and universities are still open. It don’t make no sense because in the end children are the ones that contract, they’ll pass that on as quick if their parents let them go to school. The next kid takes it back and then we’re just back again.

TC—It doesn’t make sense to me either. If you shut it down, okay you curve it a bit but then... I know exactly what you’re implying. I fully agree. It’s crap.

ST—It’s a double recession. After this, we’re basically in a recession without them making it known, and we’ve gone into the second recession and it’s coming up to the third one, which will be like a depression rather than a recession. We’re going to be, the country is already bankrupt but it’s going to be fucked. Bruv, did you see this guy, an English politician went on TV and said if you are a creative, you should look at another job. You should be looking at finding another avenue of employment because they can’t support anybody who’s working in the arts or something. I don’t know.

TC—I saw that and I thought it was interesting. I saw people angry but I also understood the sentiment. I think I understood what he meant, which just forecasting, he’s basically saying, 'Look, I don’t know.' What I took it as is he don’t know what the fuck is about to happen. So you all better figure it out before it’s too hard to figure it out. I think that’s what he was saying. Now, do I agree? I don’t know, whoopty whoop, but I could see why both sides were like, 'What the fuck!? How dare he say some shit like that?!'

ST—I agree with you, fuck this.

TC—It’s super real with the next few months because no one knows what the fuck’s going on, so he’s like, 'You all n----s better get prepared if you can before the preparing is long gone.' I was like, 'Fuck, that is terrifying.'

ST—It’s logical, bro, everybody ought to. It’s bullshit, everything. You can’t even live in normality, I’m just trying to do something normal without fucking...

TC—Out there, do you live in the city where it’s super dense, or is it more on the outskirts?

ST—It’s about two hours from London. It’s in between Birmingham and London. It’s fucking, there’s nothing really here, man. Even, I don’t know, Uber Eats is an example of it. You’re getting a kebab. You can’t come back, that’s it, you ain’t getting nothing, you ain’t getting no truffle fries, let’s put it that way.

TC—You’re sort of in the middle of no man’s land.

ST—No man’s land and everybody here is fucking dumb, man. They don’t understand, they just don’t get it. It’s like whatever is relevant now is like ten years behind here. Obviously, there are kids who are into everything but it’s not most people.

TC—As an overall that place experienced latency, it’s late with... wow.

ST—I don’t know. Obviously, there’s a vibe but not much of it. The only thing here is pubs and kebab shops.

TC—Oh shit, I see. England’s a really interesting place, man. It’s a place that I’m still learning more and more about, about the outskirts, about the, what do you call it, the zones?

ST—No it’s like home, it’s like a state, like Midlands, East Midlands, the North, it’s split into sections but not like zones. I can’t even think what they’re called, it’s just Midlands. I’m in the East Midlands.

TC—The more out you go, or, I don’t know, someone was explaining it to me. I think they was explaining it to me because they take the train, though.

ST—Oh no, you’re talking about in London there’s zones. There’s Zone 1, Zone 2, it’s split into Central London... it’s obviously how much it cost to travel to each zone. You can either get the one thing for your zone, but that’s London. Even there they haven’t got—London is dry, bro, it’s good because there’s a lot more stuff. They’re just, I don’t know.

TC—Is there anywhere you want to live? Your dream spot of relocating?

ST—I don’t know, I think I want to live in the countryside just because I can do what the fuck I want. I feel like, recently I felt like I want to spend some time in Paris but I don’t know if that’s because, just the fucking, the romance of that. I don’t know, there’s just something about it. I like LA but at the same time, everything seems a bit superficial in some places. I don’t know, man, I kind of feel like I’m going to float around and see. I didn’t spend enough time anywhere to make a decision about where I want to be.

TC—It’s always interesting when people say LA is very superficial or very fake or whatever. I’m always curious on the LA people see. I was born and raised there so I guess I move very differently than people who aren’t from there. From the restaurants I go to and the streets I take and the people I frequent, I never got to the place of feeling like that. I think a lot of the people that people meet are also from out of town so it’s certain spots. Like, 'This is the spot to go to but I’m actually from New York,' but someone that’s from New York told me to come here because they didn’t know where else to go because they didn’t grow up here. I think that’s what it might be.

ST—I’m 100% with that because I think everyone who I’ve come into contact with, the people that I fuck with heavy over there is Kevin, KB, people that are from the hood, and they’re chill. When you spend a lot of time with people who they aren’t from there and they do what’s exciting or they go to Chateau or do da da da da. It seems like a lot of the time I spend rolling to all these places and I’m like, 'Bro, I’m not even that interested.'

TC—That’s the thing, I know people who go to the Chateau, I think that hotel’s fucking trash and ugly, like why do you want to hang out there? I think it’s the idea of going there because of, 'Oh they did this in 1978 in this room and I go here to smoke my cigarette.' Then, at certain restaurants, they go to where they know paparazzi will be. I grew up in Hawthorn and Englewood so I move differently, I know LA. I know what colors not to wear. I grew up around that so I’m not going to the fucking Chateau, I’m not going to Cha Cha Matcha, what the fuck? I’m not going to St. Alfred’s, I don’t even fucking drink coffee but I know of these spots, I know the type of people that go there. I’m well versed in everything but when people that’s not from there tell me LA sucks, I’m like, 'Why?' Because these places and these people.

ST—I don’t know, when I was doing things and I was on my own, shit, I was rolling around doing my own thing. I was like, 'This is a vibe.' Then I started linking up, I don’t know. I go to them places and they seem pretentious and I’m like, 'This is bad.'

Left — T-shirt by WTAPS, cardigan by COMME DES GARÇONS, shirt and trousers by ARIES, socks by NEIGHBOURHOOD, boots by MONCLER

Right — T-shirt by WTAPS, cardigan by COMME DES GARÇONS, shirt and chain SLOWTHAI'S OWN

TC—I’m mad. I’m going to take you around. Three weeks ago, right before it got cold in LA, which cold for us is like 67 degrees, which is probably warm for you guys, but being from LA, that’s freezing. I took this girl to a beach early in the morning and she was like, 'I’ve never been here blah, blah, blah.' I’m like, 'What beach do you go to?' She’s like, 'They always tell me to go to Malibu or Venice,' and I’m like, 'No, you don’t... that’s not, no.' She was shocked that she’s never been to this particular beach. That made me think about when people aren’t from here, it’s really, it’s places they really don’t know exist because the people showing them go to Google to look them up. I got to start being more aware of that and change that for all my friends who aren’t from there to show them what Los Angeles is really like.

ST—That’s the thing, where is that? I’m one of them people, I don’t mind going to the hood. I’m not saying it’s the right thing but I feel like whenever you go somewhere the best place to gauge a vibe is when you go to where people are really from there, where there’s not mad money circulating and everyone is doing their thing. Even when you go there, everyone’s like no you can’t go here and I’m like, 'How are you going to see it for real if I’m just going to the fucking popular spot?' I want to go to the greasy nasty shit that’s there.

TC—I’m going to take you to the food spots and the areas. Don’t get me wrong, there’s some spots that no, we shouldn’t go there n----. You look that shit up on Google.

ST—I know.

TC—I’m going to take you around because it’s different, it’s the shit that—everyone cares about different things so you might be with people who like the idea of being seen and stuff. Like, man, I’m in LA and I’m so low key, paparazzi won’t be on me like that because I know how to move and I don’t like going in the areas where they are. I might eat here and there but it’s a whole different world. I wonder if you spent two days with us, with me and my friends, if that would change your perception on the idea of Los Angeles. You might end up loving it, like, 'Oh, I want to be here because I know where and where not to go.'

ST—Yeah, I’m down, baby. When I come out there we’ll do something, man, because I’m sick of going—let’s see, either I’m in the studio or I’m going somewhere around The Chateau in West Hollywood. This is not it. Most of the time I end up taking shrooms and chilling in the fucking AirBnB. I’m like, 'Can we just set up a studio in here and not leave?'

TC—I’ll take you to the ice cream spots, the burger spots, we got to go biking. We ain’t going to be at no fucking Delilah, we ain’t going to be at no fucking—none of that. I’m going to show you the good spots. I’ll show you my spots.

ST—You’re native to there, bro, that’s better than... I don’t know. Anyway, it sounds like I’m just slacking it off but at the same time, I do like it there but I don’t like doing the same shit.

TC—I was like that about Miami, I used to hate Miami because everyone’s like, 'Go here, go to the strip club.' I don’t want to see girls shaking their ass n----. Then go here and go... it’s like, bro. Then the one time I, oh the sun is beaming, I love that. Yes, n----, I love sunlight so much, goddamn bitch, yes. I went to Miami and I was like, 'Let me do it my way.' Rented a nice house right off the water, we had a cook who made us french toast whenever we wanted and shit, and pastries and we had Uno cards set up. We were just chilling. Then I wanted to test drive this car so I had this car for the weekend and I test drove it because I ended up buying it. It wasn’t some, 'Oh I’m in Miami' rapper shit, I literally test drove it. We took the car to the Everglades to play with alligators and feed birds. Then we went to go eat sushi and then we went jet skiing. We went jet skiing for hours and we were playing with dolphins and getting fucked up by the big waves from the boats. It was, there was more stuff that happened but it was so my speed. It was like my type of thing. I fell in love with Miami, I fell in love with the sunset over the bridge that connects to the other sections. I had to do it in my way and not the way people were telling me. Which was, 'Go to the strip club, go over here,' they be doing it but that’s not my speed.

ST—We like doing normal things, where the fuck am I going to do that? I don’t know.

TC—Yeah, the normal shit. We was in Miami looking at vintage cars and riding the bikes through little Haiti, seeing the, it’s such a different architecture and just how set up differently it is from LA. I was in love with it and you never see that because everybody’s like go to the club. Go to South Beach.

ST—I went to a club, when I went to Miami I went to a club there and it was fucking weird. I didn’t have ID and I didn’t want to go in, I forgot my ID but it was kind of on purpose. Then I went in with the car and I was like, 'Yeah,' then when we go there I was like, 'Aw I forgot my ID.' It’s an hour drive or something, I was like, 'I’ll just go back, I’m all right.' They were like, 'No, I’ll speak to the guy, come in.' I went in there and there was this big shark on the wall and every time a song was playing, like EDM, the song would go and this foam would come out of the shark's mouth. I’m looking how to end this, bro, I want to go.

TC—I don’t party, I’ve never liked to party, I’ve never clubbed, I’ve never... I don’t even drink so that side of the world wasn’t lucrative, it wasn’t interesting to me. When I did it my way, man I fell in love with that fucking city. I love Miami now and that sunlight, I love when that fucking sun just beaming just right fucking here.

ST—It’s hot, Miami’s hot man.

TC—I love it.

ST—I like it. I like being in the sun but it gets to a point where I’m fried.

TC—I need it, n----, give me some shorts.

ST—I get to the point where I’m like, 'Where the shade? I need to fucking cool off.'

TC—Put my fucking feet in some shoes, untied with no socks because my feet don’t sweat, throw my little hat on, it’s a wrap.

ST—I’ll come out there as soon as this shit’s all over. I might. I’m done with being here.

TC—It’s sick, though, but I feel you, there’s spots that I still don’t really like because it’s not my speed. I fully understand when it’s like, 'Nah, that’s not for me.'

ST—Where’s the worst place you’ve been? Anywhere you’ve ever been you hate it the most.

TC—My least favorite place, oh, Luxembourg. It’s near Germany. I mean that place, nope, that place fucking sucks. I’ll say it, that place dick is soft bro.

ST—You didn’t like it?

TC—No, nope, nope, nope and I don’t... I went to Brazil once but not Rio. I think it was São Paulo, I didn’t enjoy it there but that was so long ago, that was in 2011. I probably would have a different experience if I went now. I don’t even think it’s fair to currently judge that because it’ll probably be a whole different, I have a whole different set of eyes now than I did when I was twenty.

ST—I suppose it changes, innit, man? That’s the thing, that’s why I can’t, off a first impression, I can’t make my decision because I’ll start being like, 'I hate it,' then I go back. Like France. I went there three times and I was like, 'I can’t fucking stand this place.' Then recently I went to Valence, which is two hours away from Marseilles, it was out in the hood. They were riding motocross, wheeling all around the street doing all kind of fucked shit. All the houses are boarded up, it’s all derelict. They’re all out vibing in the street doing barbecues and shit. They didn’t speak one word of English, I don’t speak French and I just got them, they got me and we were on a vibe.

TC—It’s energy, it’s definitely... you all don’t even know the language but it’s an energy, that shit we can’t see, that allowed you to just enjoy yourself.

ST—We didn’t need to talk, fucking—that’s the best vibe though, man. That’s how you know when you’re vibing with someone, you could be there for hours and not necessarily have to say too much but there’s still a vibe.

TC—Language is so—I was speaking to a friend about words about a week ago, when I listen to music I listen to the music first, the melody. Does that feel good? If not, I don’t give a fuck how good the lyrics are. Miracles, spiritual shit, I don’t care how deep they are. If it doesn’t sound good it’s not for me. That’s not some crazy shit, 90% of the world feels like that probably. Then I was thinking about, I feel like words are just reference points. It’s to really sing along in a more detailed way. When we sing our 'A-B-C-D-E,' we’re not really remembering the letters, it’s the melody. You know what I mean? Words are secondary. 'Twinkle Twinkle Little Star,' we’re remembering the melody. That’s why a fucking two-year-old is able to.

TC—Yeah, it’s crazy that sometimes we put so much emphasis on words and what’s said rather than that energy and the feeling of it. I think that’s why we like Playboi, not saying just me and you but as a whole, why we like Playboi Carti. The man’s not even really speaking fucking English but the energy.

ST—It’s a vibe dog.

TC—It’s such an energy and there’s so much nuance to it that we’re attracted to that rather than the actual words. I don’t give a fuck, I don’t need this n---- to read me what Carl Sagan wrote, I’m just feeling it. I think being aware of that is so important to a lot of people. Then you get into speaking the language and the language isn’t just words. I remember Offset put an album out and someone was like, 'That shit is trash!' I was like, 'But it wasn’t made for you.' Take it away objectively or whatever the fuck but man, it’s some kid that’s thirteen that grew up in Atlanta who had an older brother that had a specific Camaro. He loves that fucking album because the language is speaking to him to the end result of where he grew up, his experiences, the people he knows, the slang, the language, the food, all of that. That album is probably godlike to him. To the person who’s saying it’s trash, bro, you grew in Montana.

ST—They don’t understand.

TC—You don’t understand the language and it’s not just the words. You don’t understand the energy and the tone, the perspective that that comes from.

ST—That’s what I think with the hood thing because you could come from Hungary, or however you pronounce it, and if you’re from the hood, it’s the same, it’s still speaking to you. You know what I’m saying even if you don’t understand the language, it’s embedded in the fucking vibe.

TC—It’s embedded in the hums, it’s embedded in the vocal phrasing and the choice of drums, and the way that the pants are worn. It’s not necessarily exactly what kind of pants or how they’re worn, but it’s like, 'Oh, you made that choice because this happened.'

ST—It’s the similarity in some aspects, yeah.

TC—It’s so interesting and I feel like that’s why we gravitate to what we gravitate to. Sometimes it’s unexplainable because it’s that invisible language, it’s that energy, it’s that aura, it’s that thing that we as humans, we’re not advanced enough to comprehend.

Left — Cardigan by WACKO MARIA, t-shirt by SLAM JAM X BRAIN DEAD, necklace by 1017 ALYX 9SM, shorts by NIKE, socks by NEIGHBOURHOOD, shoes by NIKE DUNK HIGH X SLAM JAM

Right — Coat by WACKO MARIA

ST—You can’t explain it, it just is what it is. That’s what I think is fucking, it’s the language, isn’t it? It’s music in itself, melody or whatever is its own fucking, it’s what connects so many people. That’s why there’s so many people all across the world that vibe with this one fucking thing and we don’t know it.

TC—Do you watch television at all?

ST—Yeah I do. I don’t really watch it, it’s kind of background noise.

TC—I recently got into a few shows. I was never a TV watcher much, my friends are, so whenever they tell me to watch something they think I’ll like, I try to check it out. Most of that time is spent listening to music or being outside. It’s a few shows I’ve been watching the past month that I’m fucking super in love with. I was just curious if you watched any.

ST—I’ve seen you tweet, it wasn’t your tweet, no you commented, I’ve seen something posted about We Are Who We Are...

TC—Yeah, that show.

ST—I was trying to get it because we don’t have HBO and shit, I just love Kudi, he’s the god.

TC—Check it out, I really, really, really like that show. It’s very dreamlike and something I like about it is how they tell you about the characters. Instead of the kid saying, 'I like the color orange,' and you know that he likes the color orange, they’ll put an orange flag somewhere and you’ll watch him and his eyes, how he reacts to it and you’ll watch him throughout the day. You end up knowing he likes orange and you watch how they act when you follow them all day and you learn about them like that. Then, they’re all together and you see how they react and bounce off of each other. I thought that was really interesting and I don’t know. It’s a really cool and interesting show, it’s such a world. I like when shows aren’t trying to be good or bad, it’s just an idea that got executed and it is what it is, it’s its own thing.

ST—Yeah, it’s like its own universe in a way. That’s why I read fucking comics and superhero shit because it’s its own fucking universe. Like Star Wars.

TC—I’ve never seen Star Wars.

ST—If I was going to say watch it, I’d say watch the original three.

TC—I’ve never watched Star Wars, I watched Harry Potter actually, the first one for the first time like two months ago.

ST—What did you think about that?

TC—It was cool. It was cool, I don’t know if I want to watch the other ones much.

ST—The last ones yeah, but I like villains man. I’ve got this thing where I fucking hate the good guy and I want the villain.

TC—Everyone loves villains. All of our countries were built on villains. We love villains.

ST—I love when the villain wins, the villain never wins. What about the one film, there needs to be a movie where the villain wins. The villain prevails, man.

TC—Have you ever seen The Boys?

ST—Yeah I did, that shit is funny.

TC—That show is fire.

ST—And at the end where it’s that the woman turns into him.

TC—Oh you like that, you a freak, you like that shit.

ST—Then the stranger is like, 'Fuck this, fuck this bitch. I am not taking this shit no more. You can’t get in my fucking head.' That shit is fire. That shit is fire.

TC—The Boys is really good. I like seeing the fucked up shit, yeah let’s see the dark side of it. I never liked superhero movies, I never liked The Hulk, Spiderman, Batman, I never really watched them. It’s just not my thing, so when my friend told me about The Boys and was like, you’ll like this perspective of this, it was fucking good. There’s so much nuance to it and a whole different outlook, it’s fire.

ST—Yeah it’s the perspective, and I spent hours fucking with that shit. Have you ever watched Submarine? It’s a different thing.

TC—Yeah, is Submarine, oh wait Submarine... or no, I’m thinking of Squid in a Well. No, Submarine?

ST—It’s written by Richard Ayoade who’s like a comedian, a dry, dry comedian. Check it out.

TC—I’ve definitely seen this fucking... yeah, yeah I’ve seen this movie. I watched this and I watched The Squid in the Well the same day, that’s why I got them mixed up.

ST—I don’t know, what’s The Squid in the Well?

TC—It’s another one of those dry indie movies.

ST—That shit’s my favorite shit, man because I like how fucking bland but at the same time, it’s the irony of life in a way. It’s bland and the soundtrack’s cool. Alex Turner is a G in that.

TC—I know that one. There’s this movie called Sing Street I think from 2016, that’s based in the UK, some kid in school that starts a band to get this girl. It’s kind of cheeky and I like that fucking movie, it’s very cute but it’s fucking fire. I don’t know if you will fuck with it but as soon as you said Submarine, the lead character kind of looks like him.

ST—You know what this film is based on? It’s based on U2.

TC—U2? The band with fucking Bono? Bono’s stupid ass?

ST—Bono, this is based on them, how they met on the island and their band at school because they started in school and shit.

TC—I did not know that. I hate that movie now. I fucking hate Bono. You know why I hate Bono? Fucking Apple decided to put his fucking album on my fucking phone without my fucking permission so fuck that n----.

ST—You can’t get rid of it, I couldn’t.

TC—I couldn’t delete it bro, fuck. Also, genius, genius marketing plan but also makes me hate that motherfucker. Go sing at another fucking fundraiser like save the Earth, save the Earth! Suck my dick, Bono.

Left — Sweater by ERL, trousers by CAV EMPT, socks by NEIGHBOURHOOD, shoes by NIKE DUNK HIGH X SLAM JAM

Right — T-shirt by WTAPS, cardigan by COMME DES GARÇONS, shirt and chain SLOWTHAI'S OWN

ST—They sung at the fundraiser, the first Live Aid, and they didn’t raise no money, and then along comes Freddie Mercury and fucked that up.

TC—Bono cool, he don’t mean no harm. I just wish they didn’t put that fucking stupidass dumbass album on my fucking phone without my fucking permission. That was probably fucking, that was probably Jimmy Iovine’s fucking idea.

ST—Quick get in there, U2 one of the biggest bands in history ever to do it, let’s give them... He’s actually, his son, they’ve got a band and they covered one of my songs. It wasn’t particularly executed that great but it was still the thought that counts, I thought this was fire.

TC—I’m going to look that up, that’s cool. One thing, I love when bands cover songs but it’s kind of shitty because I don’t want it perfect. I want the feeling and I like the lack of expertise a little bit because it gives it nuance. I’m kind of into that shit.

ST—I’m actually cool with it in a cringy way because we know when the guitar sounds, it’s like saying the song’s on a synth, the bass is a synth and they’re playing it on the guitar. I don’t know, I was fucking with it, but at the same time I was like, 'Man...'

TC—No, I think it’s because it’s your song so you have such a connection to it that no one else has. Someone else trying to channel, someone else doing your shit, you’re always going to feel like, 'Ugh.' There’s some kids that covered 'New Magic Wand' and it’s fucking horrible and it’s one of my favorite things ever. I never uploaded it, I was going to upload it on the year anniversary, it’s so fucking cool because it’s not good but it’s great. Sun City Girls, they do a cover of 'Me and Mrs. Jones,' it’s a classic soul song and the guy’s voice sounds like a fucking teapot when it’s too hot, he’s screeching and it’s gross. It’s one of my favorite covers of all time. If you get a chance, listen to Sun City Girls, 'Me and Mrs. Jones,' and then listen to the original and you’ll be like, 'These are not the same,' but that’s why it’s so good.

ST—I’ll fucking check it out, I’ll check it, man.

TC—[singing] 'Me and Mrs. Jones...'

ST—Do you feel like it’s been a year since both our albums came out?

TC—Man, it feels like... honestly time doesn’t exist to me anymore.

ST—I’m used to it and then when everything comes around, it don’t feel like it’s been...

TC—I don’t know if time feels shorter or longer. I’m at, because of the way the world is right now, I’m just existing. I’m fully just existing, I’m just alive. Every Wednesday feels... I don’t even, days don’t even fucking matter anymore, I’m just here. I just threw up in my mouth a little bit, oh my god.

ST—That’s that reflex.

TC—Yo!

ST—You need to chill out on all that shit.

TC—You are, pause, pause, pause.

ST—Fuck you man, you can’t pause me.

Left — Shirt by BRAIN DEAD, hat by STUSSY

TC—Everybody got they camera closed so I can’t see their fucking reaction but you all some fucking weirdos, I’ll tell you that right now.

BRADLEY BLEDSOE—I’m trying to let you guys have a one on one.

TC—Pause. I actually forgot there were other people here.

BB—Good.

TC—I don’t think I said anything crazy except fuck Bono.

ST—I was slewing inside this whole house.

TC—I gotta chill though, I feel like Bono will get me killed. Bono will get me chipped.

ST—I’m about to say something that I shouldn’t say but I’m going to say you’re getting the IRA mad, you know what I’m saying?

TC—Yeah, I don’t hate Bono but also fuck him for putting his album on my phone. I’m going to chill, he’ll get me clapped, that’s fire. That would be a South Park episode, Bono getting me clapped.

ST—Do you think he’s angry? Do you think he’s actually angry because he’s Irish? How tall is Bono? Does he have little man syndrome? That’s the question.

TC—That’s funny. How tall are you?

ST—I’m 5’11 I think.

TC—That’s sexy as fuck.

ST—How tall are you?

TC—Like 6’1.

ST—I would wrap you up man.

TC—What? Pause! See that’s the shit I been talking about, he keeps trying to fuck me, bro.

ST—Ah no, no.

TC—He keeps trying to fuck me on this interview.

ST—The whole nation’s running wild for you right now man.

TC—He going to wrap me up?

ST—Wrap you up, that’s what we say when we—

TC—No, nah, nah you trying to go crazy. Wow. I’m flattered.

ST—How tall is Bono? Bro, he is tiny. He’s 5’6”.

TC—Of course he is, he wears leather jackets. I’ve never seen a tall n---- in my life wear a leather jacket.

ST—I bet you’ve worn a leather jacket.

TC—No, no, no, no, I’ve never done the leather with the little strap, the neck strap that be flapping when you get excited and turn too fast.

ST—I see you in on your Harley Davidson riding through like, 'Yeah.'

TC—I fucking do not like motorcycles. They’re dangerous, not a fun dangerous. I mean I guess they’re fun. At least now, maybe when I’m 47 and maybe balding and going through a midlife crisis because the kids don’t care about me no more, I’ll buy a motorcycle.

ST—I’m going to buy one but I need to get this driving license, I’m trying to get a fucking road license.

TC—Can you drive a car?

ST—I can but I haven’t got a license.

TC—That’s what they all say.

ST—Let me get in your car, I’ll show you how to fucking drive.

TC—You know how to drive stick good?

ST—Listen, you need to pause, motherfucker, again.

TC—N---- I’m just asking if you know how to drive a stick.

ST—Now you’re trying to... I see how this is, you can’t lure me in like that.

TC—Bro I’m just asking if you know how to drive a stick, it’s not nothing weird.

ST—Oh you mean the weird car?

TC—Yeah, like stick.

ST—It’s the language barrier, I swear. I could drive one. I don’t drive automatic, I drive manual.

TC—So you drive stick?

ST—I ain’t saying that. I ain’t saying that to you. Entrapment, this is entrapment! Fucking, what car are you driving now?

TC—It depends on the day of the week.

ST—Like that, you’re going like that. What is the selection of cars you’re driving?

TC—I have a McLaren, I have a Rolls Royce, I have an E30 BMW, I have two Lancia Delta Evos, and I have another car on a cargo plane right now.

ST—What car is that?

TC—You’ll see.

ST—What car is your favorite car?

TC—What’s my favorite? I don’t know probably my E30, my little BMW, that shit, I know how to drive that thing. I know how to drive all of them well but I love that little fucking, little cute thing. It’s the cutest thing ever. If that car had a dick, I would suck it.

ST—They’re the best ones, you’re into Germans, innit?

TC—Huh?

ST—You’re into Germans, German whips.

TC—Oh. I love little—actually Lancia is Italian, the Beamer, and then the Rolls is English, McLaren’s English from Surrey, Surrey, England. I don’t like American cars at all.

ST—See, when I was young, my stepdad, he always had BMWs, man.

TC—Good cars, and the new one that’s coming is Italian.

ST—You’re a car man, I’m trying to do my driving but I can’t because of this fucking quarantine.

TC—That’s why you got to get the fuck out of there and come, bring your ass to the US, come to the cut, you come hang out and we could go to my little ranch and drive little ATVs and fucking have orgies.

ST—Pause, man, pause. I don’t even pause but I’m pausing this.

TC—Look, Ty, I need nudes, and send me more shit to get on, and hopefully I’ll hop on it.

Left — Jacket by SLAM JAM (UN)CORPORATE UNIFORMS, hat by CP COMPANY, chain SLOWTHAI'S OWN

Right — Coat by WACKO MARIA, trousers by VANS, socks by NEIGHBOURHOOD, shoes by ROA, chain and watch SLOWTHAI'S OWN

ST—Send me something.

TC—At least I’m back producing, I stopped producing for five months. I literally stopped making beats for five months because I was, I just wasn’t making music but now I’m back.

ST—So what, have you got stuff there?

TC—I’m starting again.

ST—Save me some stuff man.

TC—Do I look pregnant?

ST—You are pregnant, man.

TC—Is it yours?

ST—I guess so.

TC— What the fuck? You nutted in me, bro? Pause!

ST—You earned that.

TC—You weird, you fucking nutted in me, you a weirdo.

ST—When you was asleep man.

TC—When I was asleep!

ST—You didn’t even know I was there, I was a phantom.

TC—What the fuck?

ST—A phantom, a phantom menace.

TC—Oh man.

ST—It’s either mine or Bono’s. You decide.

TC—Well, this call has been great, you’re a doll. Everyone, thanks for setting this up. I am going to go outside and enjoy this beautiful sunlight and wear my brown.

Pre-order office magazine Issue 13 HERE.

Music

Oklou Says It’s Okay to Make Life A Performance of Your Own Rite

She had just returned from the Kiko Kostadinov show at Paris Fashion Week. “It was beautiful,” she said with a soft smile, an enticing gentleness that mirrors her artistry, honed from years studying classical music, hosting radio shows in Paris, and being heavily involved in the musicality and lyricism of her work. Just days earlier, Oklou had hosted her own intimate shows in an inconspicuous Chinatown space in New York City. Guests ascended a slightly-too-small elevator—its deliberate slowness creating a hint of suspense—and arrived at a room bathed in soft pink and purple light. Floor cushions scattered through the space encouraged an intimate listening experience as Oklouunveiled the songs she’d been crafting over the past two years, offering a deeply personal and immersive performance.

What began as a planned thirty-minute conversation about her upcoming album stretched into an hour-long exploration of her work: processing life through song, the pursuit of artistic integrity, the magic of perfect loops, and her ongoing search for simplicity in both sound and expression.

“So, I’m going to try my best to talk about this,” she began, leaning in slightly. “When I talk about the songs and the album, there’s just so many feelings and thoughts I’ve been trying to put into words. It’s been one of the biggest challenges for me.”

She paused, then laughed lightly. “I make songs, and then when it comes to talking about them, I often get lost along the way. So, pardon me if that happens.”

The honesty of her admission added to her charm. “It’s an effort for me,” she explained. “Even in French, it’s hard for me to make sense of everything. So in English… my brain is like, agh, you know?”

Your single “friends and family” has been out for two weeks now! How does it feel “to be back”, as they call it and have released this song into the world after a period of away?

Yeah, it feels great. I've been waiting for that for a couple of months now, if not years. It's really nice for many reasons. I'm glad to get back in touch with my audience. I am happy that I finally can, after all these months of writing, I can release a bit of the creative pressure, even though it's still there because now we are working on the imagery and all the visuals. It's also a lot of work, but my main medium, which is music, it's all done. So it feels a little bit like a holiday with a bit of a paradox because I'm way busier than I've been over the last two years, but mentally, because I don't have that pressure over the music and all the creative stress, the business is actually comfortable.

There’s a line in the track, if I heard correctly, about lying in bed all day. So I was curious, what's your perfect day, lying in bed?

Love that question. I would take the time to actually watch movies during daytime because it's not something I do anymore. It's such a shame because when you watch movies at night, you fall asleep and movies deserve the actual focus and attention that you have throughout the morning or the afternoon. So, I really want to normalize watching movies during the daytime; it’d be great for all of us. Anyway, I would do that…I would probably sleep, of course. I would probably read, take the time to read and listen to podcasts. You know, nothing crazy. Eat some blueberries.

Thinking back to that feeling of release, you posted last week on your Instagram account about how “friends and family” has to do with performance, and I also remember also at the New York show, you mentioned how you felt like you could just be human in that space– you didn't have to just put on a persona. Could maybe elaborate more on that? On your being able to be yourself versus having to put on a performance?

The other day, I sent the music video to my family on WhatsApp group chat, and they asked, well first, obviously, they're all French, and they don't understand a word of the song since it’s all in English. So they've asked, “What’s this about?” And that was when I actually put my finger on that performance thing. Basically, the song starts with me relating a memory I have of one of my teachers in my life from when I was very young. This teacher was always trying to push me to be more emotionally impressive with my classical music, so I began to see it as a challenge like “Oh, you think I'm callous and cold? Watch this, I'm going to put tears in everybody's eyes”.

So, I started performing to emotionally move people, but for the wrong reasons. Now, I'm trying to understand where in lies the performance that is my own. It's like a conversation with myself I guess where I'm trying to figure out what path I really want to pursue with only my own critique which is almost impossible, but I'm doing the questioning.

I think failure is more, well I would say, it’s an attempt. When you are learning, when you are trying, you cannot be failing because in some way, you are still moving ahead.

You shared via Instagram caption that you hadn’t posted anything on social media for a while because you felt like you weren't meeting the expectations of your job. What made you feel that way?

Well, to be fair, first of all, I think this caption was a bit of a joke because I don't really feel like I haven't met people's expectations in the sense that it's okay for me to take my time creatively.

I think I'm not there to fulfill anybody's expectations. It's art. There's no recipe, whatever. But also purely from a social media perspective, I’ve been restraining myself so that I could be active during the writing process. Which is fine because I’ve been on social media ever since I could. It's been more than 10 years, and it's always been a habit for me to post as I've always been very vocal on the Internet. And recently, I think for the first time, I've been a bit more distanced, also because I cannot… just like having that phone in my hands, was hurting my eyes more and more.

Sorry, there's a mosquito.

It's okay.

I also felt I felt like people didn't really care about the flowers in my garden I would post on my Instagram story. People would be like, “Girl, where's the music?” which didn’t make me mad at all. I understood. It’s all jokes. But that's why I wrote that caption, basically.

It seems like you have a healthy line of understanding why you do what you do creatively and looking at things through your lens without the perspectives or opinions of others blinding you. With that said, how do you measure your own success?

I think it's a very interesting question, but also really hard because there are so many layers to the feeling of success. There's the financial success, there is the numbers success, which is connected to financial, obviously. But when I say numbers, it's the actual numbers or streams or views or followers. And then the one that I might be a bit cliché, but it's really true in my In my recent life. But the success that I prefer is far from the numbers. It’s a much more intimate feeling that I've done what I was meant to do.

Like very personal.

Whether it's commercially a success or not, is so disconnected from my personal gauge. Of course, when both conditions are met, commercial success and my personal feeling of accomplishment, it's amazing. It's not It's not making me grow as an artist, not numbers wise, I'm not interested.

Mhm.

It's such a privilege to be able to say it because obviously, like everyone else, I need to make money to live. But also, I don't think I can do anything with my music just to pay my rent. I'm not ready to give up on my artistic integrity. And the older I grow, the more this feeling is confirmed in my head. The worst thing is don’t have full control, the decisions don’t resonate with your heart at all, and then it goes wrong. And then you're like, well, what did we learn? Nothing. We learned nothing from that.

What about “failure”?

And failure? Failure for me is a bit of a hard word because I'd rather say... I think failure is more, well I would say, it’s an attempt. When you are learning, when you are trying, you cannot be failing because in some way, you are still moving ahead.

I really love, too, what you said about your successes, being so intimately personal to you; the feeling of when you've been able to do exactly what you felt you wanted to do, and it all came together.

What journey did this project take you on? What emotions were you channeling or unraveling, or processing?

Many different moments of this past two and a half years– that's how long it took me to put the pieces together.. At the beginning, I was convinced I wanted to do a more like a rave-ish album without drums at all, but then I started adding the drums on my stuff and writing songs with guitar.

I love that song. The bird one.

Thank you!

But yeah, I think this album has many questions and not many answers. It's filled with directions and attempts also, irregularities. It's a depiction of, I guess, what also happened in my life and also me trying to guess what happened - putting it all together.

I think all of your songs, maybe there are some voice notes and things that are in French, but for the most part, I feel like they're all in English. Does that allow you to try and process things that don't make sense to you in French, or is it just your method?

English, for me, was a way to take the pressure away when it comes to lyrics and language. I think I wouldn't allow myself to write things in French because my appreciation of French poetry is so high, and I know that I would never, never meet these expectations myself because I'm a musician first and lyricism follows. It doesn't mean that I don't care if I do something average. I really care, but at least this way I can free myself from feeling self-conscious or critical when I write.

I love how you’ve found a way to create in your own manner with as much respect as possible.

Oh, yeah. I've tried as much as possible.

I noticed you're back working with CaseyMQ. I'm sure you guys have never stopped working together. What's it like working with someone you’re so comfortable with who can help you unpack your life into song?

Casey is amazing to work with because he understands my vision. He's the only person that basically can help me on every aspect of the music from lyrics to melody, elaborating on certain parts, just everything. He can, I think, he can pull out any texture of sound I want, and everything I cannot do, he can do. I don't think I'll ever find someone like that ever to write my songs with him and I'm very grateful to have met him.

How has your work together evolved especially for this project?

For this project sonically, there is one common ground connecting the majority of the songs and that is this idea of finding the perfect loops. This idea came from my listening and admiration of artists like Chuck Person’s with his Ecco Jams and Lorenzo Siemi who I’ve been listening to for a long time who also had those ideas at their forefront.

So instead of elaborating on melodies and harmonies that change and that are patterns that are longer in time, the songs on this album were based on singular patterns that I really liked and then we thought okay let's try to make a song with that.

That’s really cool to hear because now we can all listen for those loops. I feel like things of that nature are what make songs so enjoyable to listen to.

Yea, it’s like the song can go on forever.

Continuing on the idea of collaboration, for this project you have a song with Underscores! How did that come about?

April (of Underscores), she's blown my mind with her previous body of work – the richness of it, the way she masters her productions, and she's doing it all by herself! She's some sort of genius to me. I think I just really trusted her ability to work with anything I sent over to her plus I knew she would bring something more even than her vocals to the track. And she did.

And a song with Bladee! Tell me about that one? Did these collabs happen sort of organically?

So there was nothing organic about these collabs, I'm afraid, because I actually don’t think I've ever met either IRL. [laughs]

Or actually, I met Bladee probably eight years ago or nine years ago. We were both starting our careers, the SoundCloud era and then he did what he did with all these Swedish boys.

Drain Gang?

Yeah, exactly! Those guys like Young Lean and their producers as well, obviously, have always been an influence and an inspiration for all these years, so I've always hoped that one day I could make a song with them to honor the connection I personally have with them.

I've sent a message, I think, to several people from Drain Gang and Bladee answered positively. So, I sent him a track and he was into it, and that's how it happened! I'm super grateful that he accepted because I guess he must be receiving so many messages...

Well, no, actually, I didn't send it out of blue. He did say once, “Oh, it would be nice to do something together”. So it wasn't totally like out of the blue

I think the people are going to lose their minds when they hear the songs! It’s also it a bit like you said, nice when you make these decisions, you can come together and it's greater than you. It's really satisfying.

Yeah, exactly. Super exciting.

This project is currently called choke enough, but since it doesn’t come out until February, do you think that will change? I ask because when your team sent over the album for pre-listening, they said some aspects might still change.

I think I’ll keep it, even though I thought about it recently I was like, “hmm, do I want to change it?”, but I don't have other ideas, so I don't think it's going to change.

I wanted to know, and you can also just leave it as that, but what does that title mean? From my interpretation, it's almost like when you just go through so much, but it doesn’t seem like it’s end so you’re asking yourself when is it enough?

So I guess I have many different things to say. First thing is that there is a song titled “choke enough” on the album that I just love so much. I was really hyped? Hyped is that, can I say that?

Haha, yeah, yeah. Like really excited?

I'm really imitating Americans, with that one, with words I don’t even understand. Hyped [laughs]. But yea, I was very excited about that song and I had all these ideas of titles, but none of them were good enough. So at some point, Casey, again, was like, “Well, if you like “choke enough” that much, you could just call the album that.” It took me a bit of time to solidify that choice because I knew that the phrase doesn't really mean anything in English. It's not something you say.

Yeah, I know. Like what is choke enough? You know?

It’s kind of just gibberish that I sang on the song and it just stayed there. I also like the fact that it doesn't really mean anything and it becomes brutal proof that I don’t always master what I’m trying to say.

Mhm, mhm.

Also, people can, as you just did, try to put their own meaning to it which is always something I appreciate. It’s the search for the drama, which I was leaning towards myself and I lost myself a little bit.

How so?

There’s this feeling of looking for sensations and the idea of being a bit overwhelmed with all of these different paths and not knowing which one to take. The album for me is like a messy bedroom.

The everyday struggle.

Exactly. That's exactly what this song is about. It’s asking, “how far am I ready to go in order to feel alive?” The way you are seeking the drama and getting into these situations, but on the other hand, how are you going to find fulfillment in a more simple life? Not the super sexy aspects of life, but also learning to value very accessible, and tangible moments in life.

There is a lyric in your song “blade bird” that I mentioned earlier about a romantic relationship, “What can I say? Knew it right away… you are what you are and I feel like a cage…I'll be the one who ends up getting hurt”. Does that tie back into this idea of lengths one goes to feel alive?

Yeah, “blade bird” is literally about this habit that I'm seeing in so many women in general, in my own family and in myself as well. A pattern where you fall in love with people because they represent a sense of freedom, but for me, truly love and relationships are about being able to rely on somebody. So the bird is, for me, a nice image because well, it's a bird, and you cannot put it in a cage. I mean, you could, but that would be pretty sad.

Exactly.

It's like… It's illegal.

It’s like why can’t we be free, but be free together? I don't know.

Be like, respectful, responsible, reliable.

Music

CHASING ROY BLAIR

November 18, 2024

For those of us a little too deep in our feels in 2017, Roy Blair was an oasis in an age of uncertainty. It was the era of interpersonal lyricism: vulnerable storytelling set against synth-heavy backdrops tied together with grounding hooks. Lost in the ruins of Spotify, stumbling across artists who brought raw emotion to life, we found ourselves captivated by Blair’s debut album, Cat Heaven. A mind-altering introduction to his genius, the album became the soundtrack to our year—from the joyous highs to the moments where only his words could describe the anxieties we couldn’t articulate. Roy did for us what other artists tried to do.

But then, when we needed him most, he vanished. Fans turned to Reddit deep dives marked with threads like “r/WHERE_IS_ROY_BLAIR?” as rumors swirled about an imminent second album. Years passed. The wait grew longer. But, half a decade later, the rumors proved true.

Intro + Interview by: Cassie Jekanoski
Photography by: Jeret Cheatham

Suddenly, notifications were lighting up phones everywhere: Roy Blair was back with a new project, Chasing Moving Trains. First came “Panavision” — a sweeping accumulation of his past, present, and future. Then, “Strawberry,” an upbeat, serotonin-laced track destined for replays. When the full album finally dropped, it was unmistakable—this was the purest embodiment of Roy Blair yet.

In an exclusive interview with the artist, office sat down with Blair to discuss the long-awaited release of Chasing Moving Trains, the headspace that defined his hiatus, and what lies ahead.

Read on as we delve into the truths behind those restless Reddit threads and answer the questions we’ve all been dying to know the answers to.

CASSIE– It's been a year for me since I've done an interview with somebody, so thank you for taking the time to do this. So first off, hi. How are you doing?

ROY BLAIR– I'm good. Sick. Yeah, just taking it day by day right now, honestly.

Cool. And where are you now?

New York.

Well, first off, I just wanted to say that I've been a fan of your music since literally 2017, 2018, and some of your songs have really just been the soundtrack to some of my happiest/most sentimental memories that I have had over the years. So thank you for sharing your art with us.

That means a lot. Thank you. I mean, it's so nice. I did another interview with someone and it's been half a decade or more, so the people who would be interviewing me are like, "Oh, I listened to your music." And that's so cool. Whereas when I was first doing interviews around Cat Heaven, it was like, "Who are you?" That was more of the vibe.

Damn. I mean, well, yeah, I'm coming out of interview retirement to do this. So let's get into it. So Chasing Moving Trains, what is the significance of this album title for you?

It's a few things. So I would say the main point of it is just always wanting some sort of perfection or the thing that you dream in your head to fully come to life. It’s always chasing this non-existent utopia of achieving what you want to achieve in life. It's sort of, the grass is greener on the other side always, and so you’re never really settling and appreciating what you have in front of you. The steps along the way I think are beautiful and worth just as much of your time, or maybe more of your time, than getting to the final thing. The point of the title is always chasing this ideal that you have in your head. And then the other thing is this is a record about finding yourself and going out into the world and learning more about yourself by meeting more people, by experiencing more things. The title is also literally this- I'm taking so many trains that I'm almost missing the train, if you will.

The train itself.

Yeah, or I'm traveling so much, whether it be on tour or just working on the record. I recorded the record in a few places. It's just this nonstop travel and exploration of the world and in turn yourself as well.

Sick. I feel like as an artist, I mean, correct me if I'm wrong, but it's in searching for that end goal, that maybe sometimes you stop to kind of realize where you've been, the different things that you've learned, and the different people that you've met along the way.

Totally.

I got a chance to listen to the album and I've literally been listening nonstop.

That's amazing. Thank you.

It's so good. In the title song itself, you repeat the phrase, "sometimes I can't recognize myself." Is that something that you would want to dive deeper into?

I don't know if anyone else has this experience, but sometimes I think I have a depersonalization, or I think there's an actual phrase for it, where you almost don't feel like you're in your own body. I think the thing I'm talking about is where sometimes you literally feel outside of your body. You're watching a person live your life, and sometimes I think I have that. I think sometimes I can feel so empty or in such a strange place in my life that I almost feel like I'm not recognizing the person I am. I'm not living in the moment or being present that I don't even know sometimes who I am, which is, I think that goes back to that album title and why that's the title track. There's this recurring kind of narrative thread in the record about shadows and reflections. I was trying to connect this surrealism thing where basically- I don't know. I don't want to maybe ruin it or maybe over explain it, but that does tie into this thing I was trying to tell with basically a shadow of me following me, being paranoid about my career, and my life. The main concept is really just that sometimes I literally look in the mirror and be like, I don't know who I'm looking at sometimes because maybe I'm just so out of it, or not in the moment.

Well, would you say that, especially with this new album, would you say that this a cathartic release for you and by putting this album out you're able to recognize yourself and know who you are?

Yeah, I think so for sure. I think in a funny way, spending as much time as I did with this record and falling in and out of love with making it. There was a time where I was kind of just like, “I don't really like making music anymore.” I think I was so stressed about the concept of, "Oh, I have to finish this. People are waiting for this." At this point, I'm off social media and I have to come back at some point. Then it started to pile onto me, and then I was like, "Okay, I'm going to take a step away from this." And then I started DJing in New York. This was summer 2022, and that kind of got me excited again about making music. I started locking back in on the record and I think in a funny way, even the process of making this record was cathartic because I sat with it for so long and I sat away from the audience for so long. This record is so me. You know what I mean? There's no, "Oh, I'm trying to keep up with a system." It's really just me being indulgent in a good way and being confident about it. I think it's definitely cathartic for me.

No, that's sick to hear. I'm glad that all of those different experiences brought you back into making music. But a big question that I feel like many fans are curious about was what you kind of brought up a little bit, but just taking some time in between Cat Heaven and Chasing Moving Trains. Was there anything else that you kind of wanted to bring up that was going through your mind during those years?

Yeah, I mean, the main idea is I started working on this record in January 2019. Well, honestly, I was trying to start the day after I finished Cat Heaven and I think all of 2018 was me trying to figure out what the record was going to be tonally. And then the first song that is on the album that we made was "Garden" and that was December 2018. And then the newest song in the record is 2021.

Which one?

It's "Belmont."

Okay, cool.

Well, that song is actually from 2019, but we flipped it completely. I would say that when I was working on that song, it was much different, and I was working on it a lot in 2021. But technically the newest song is "Strawberry" from Summer 2020 in terms of fresh idea. But I would argue that "Belmont" changed so much that it's almost a different song entirely. We were in London when COVID happened, working on this album, I had just made "Plum," and then the lockdown stuff was really getting serious, and we got back from London the week before everything actually closed. We were going to go to Tokyo, but that got canceled. We were going to go in April, and then it was kind of just like, "So what are we going to do now that there's this big space in between?" But now with as much time that has passed, people haven't fully thought about that being a part of this story.

I mean, it definitely is.

Yeah. And then we started basically picking work back up at the end of 2020. It was a lot of figuring out what I wanted to say that honestly took the most amount of time, just lyrics and also me growing up in real time. Maybe there were songs, ideas, or verses where I felt that was an older version of me, and that didn't really feel like the future of who I am and what I really want to be. The album took this long, might as well make it count, you know? I don't want to put out something just to put out something. At this point it's gotta matter.

Definitely.

The lockdown and everything in 2020 really kind of made me take a step back and just start existing more in real life. And then I started just growing up and the record took a long time because of that.

Yeah, I mean, that totally makes sense. I feel like especially in these past few years, there has been so much change happening that no one really had control over. So I totally get that break and need to figure out who you are, not even just as an artist, but just as a person in general, especially at such a pivotal turning point. How would you say you've grown as an artist since Cat Heaven to where you're at now? And has that growth been reflected in this new album?

First thing is just taste wise. My taste has expanded a lot just in terms of what I'm listening to. There was a lot of electronic music I got into in 2018 that just shaped a whole section of who Roy Blair is going forward that you hear on Graffiti and you hear a little bit more on this. I think that's a big component. I think Cat Heaven, Chasing Moving Trains, and even Graffiti, are pretty similar, and I think if you're a fan of me, you can clock that. I think obviously there's a lot of production differences, but I think at the core, you could listen to Cat Heaven, Chasing Moving Trains, and go, "Okay, he's kind of doing similar things with structure here, or narrative. This feels like the climax of both records." I still love Cat Heaven, still go back to that record, and go, "Hey, I didn't really know what I was doing other than that I think I have good sensibilities for how an album should feel front to back." I figured it out, and that resonated with people, and I knew that, so I wanted to do a better version of that basically. So I think the only things that have really changed is just that I got a bigger budget to do this, and I'm working with maybe more people, but honestly, I've kind of kept some of the things very similar because I think the things that mean a lot to the fans also mean a lot to me.

I can definitely see from 2017 to now, and even your project in between, you have influences from both of those, and it's kind of the perfect culmination in Chasing Moving Trains where you get that synth, you get that techno. But then it also breaks down to where it's just you being raw and singing the lyrics that are still really impactful and meaningful, but it's kind of a whole big present all wrapped into one.

I really connect "Rain" on this album to "Grand Theft Auto." Originally it was supposed to be the same amount of tracks, but I cut it down because it's about the album being better, not always about narrative. But there are a lot of counterparts in terms of you could look at this song and it's this song, or you can look at that song and it's kind of similar to what he was doing with that song. But yeah, I think there's a lot of similarities. There's a lot of threads between both records, or all three records for that matter.

Yeah, definitely. I think I'm kind of deciding what my favorite track from this album is. I think as of right now it's Amberwood.

Oh, sick.

The first time listening to it, I literally got the craziest chills and had to text all my friends. I was like, "Oh my God, just wait until this song comes out. You guys are going to freak out." I feel like it's raw. The lyrics are really beautiful and also a bit haunting. At least what I took away from it was what you were going through and talking about those first feelings you had when first starting to make music and the aftermath of that. So can you get into what you were feeling when you were writing this song?

I think the idea started in Iceland. Originally it was basically up until when the drums drop was the original version, and then there was kind of a different hook, and I was like, "Nah, this hook, it's not very good. Let's just take it off. And I don't like where the song goes." In London in February of 2020, we got to the part where the drums drop and then we were trying to figure it out, but I didn't write that second verse until summer 2020. So if you think about it, it's kind of funny because those verses feel different in energy, or just maybe where my head's at in terms of where I'm at in my career, you know what I mean? When I first started that, just to be honest, I didn't have an idea. We were making music day in and day out in Iceland, and it kind of just came to me and I was like, "Oh, this is a cool concept." As I was sitting on that, my energy towards being in the music industry started to shift slightly, and just the tone of my career or certain things that were frustrating me a lot, being independent at the time started changing. Then you got the third verse where it almost feels like the tone of where it's getting to where I'm at, and the feeling of where I'm at shifting. You can kind of feel it shift in real time over the song.

You definitely see it. It's really interesting to hear your insight on it and where you were spatially location-wise and everything when you were writing that song and finishing all of that up. Do you have a personal favorite from the album?

Yeah, I think so. I think that it changes a lot for me, which is always a good sign where I'm like, "Oh, this one's actually clicking." I think it used to be "Panavision" for a while, and then now I think a lot this year it's been "Garden." For a long time it was also "Plum." And then I think the title track to me these days, I like listening to it a lot. I think that run from basically Chasing Moving Trains to the end of the album is pretty fucking great. Maybe I'll start with "Panavision" and then I'll just let the album run and I'll be like, alright, I'm just going to listen to the rest of the record, which is a good sign.

Sick, "Garden's" really, really great. So I feel like throughout this, you've been talking about different locations and whether in Iceland, London, or Japan not happening at that moment. So you were kind of traveling in all these different places. Are there any other places that you were at when you were making the album?

Just New York a lot. So I was in LA and it was feeling pretty stagnant. This was like 2018, and I was doing sessions and nothing was feeling great. I would go to New York for a show or something and I'd do a session with these guys I ended up working with. And then me and my friend Edgar, went to New York at the beginning of 2019 to work with these guys. It was icy and cold, and we were listening to Radiohead and a bunch of stuff, and it was just very different. It was a tone shift the minute we landed, and then it kind of reflected immediately in the music we were making. So I would argue it's kind of like New York, Iceland, London, and then maybe in sort of a fake way Japan as well. I think it's still narratively a part of the record, even if we didn't go, I think the record theoretically ends there or something, or maybe ends with me coming back home to LA or New York. I think that the concept at the end of the record is me stepping off the train and into a new place or into a new part of my life, if you will.

Sick. So would you say that, so now you're living in New York, what is it about the city that continues to inspire you?

All of my friends here are just amazing artists. Everyone I know here doesn't feel like they always have to be online or share everything they're doing all the time. It's not very performative. So it's just me and my friends and we make music at each other's places and we're just hanging out. And sometimes we go to stuff, but not really. I'm able to find more of the stuff that I resonate with hobby-wise. I go to the movies all the time here, I see old movies at Metrograph, I go buy used CDs, or go bike at the park near me. There's just a lot more of a sense that I can go outside and find something that's going to fulfill the non-music aspect of me that for some reason I just struggled to find in LA.

That's cool. I love to hear that. I totally understand where it's so easy to get caught up and wrapped up in a scene. You mentioned it earlier too, about DJing these past couple of years, so now that this new project is out, do you think that DJing is something that you'll continue to do?

Yeah, definitely. I'm specific in what I like. I'm probably not a good DJ definition wise just because I think it's valid that a part of DJing is making the crowd entertained, so I don't know if it's that I'm DJing for the wrong crowd. I don't really like a lot of new stuff, the stuff I play I feel like is not super loud either. It's kind of just quieter music. So I don't know. I love doing it. I don't get offered a lot of gigs, honestly, but I'm not really looking. I don't go out and go like, "Hey, book me, book me." This is kind of like a hobby for me. I'm so down to do it more, it's just a matter of when, or if it gets brought up to me really.

How similar or different your mixes are compared to the music that you make? And what kind of artists inspired Chasing Moving Trains?

One of the big influences that I would recommend anyone to check out is the Trainspotting soundtrack. I was scared by it. The music itself freaked me out when I was younger. But as I got older and rewatched the movie, I'm doing this electronic album studying and I'm like, "Oh, yeah, I love this song." Underworld is a nineties, early two thousands electronic group from the UK and they're amazing. It was really random because specifically "Garden" is pretty inspired by them. We were in London working at the studio that's like three hours outside of London, and they were randomly there at the studio. I was like, "What the fuck? This is crazy." And then I got to meet them, talked to them for a second, and that was really cool. I would say they're a big influence on this. I mean, other electronic acts, Ken Ishii. I like a lot of hard techno stuff. I mean, Daft Punk's first album Homework, I literally have studied the fuck out of that record. I'm obsessed with it, and I play remixes of that record every time. I always find a new remix that someone did in the nineties, and I'll play it every time I'm DJing. DJ Shadow was in a group for one album called Unkle, which is a trip hop kind of duo thing where they brought on a lot of artists like Thom Yorke from Radiohead to sing. That record Psyence Fiction really inspired me, honestly.

Sick. How important is it for you to continue creating all these compelling sounds and visuals as the album continues to roll out?

So I think it's going to be next year. I'm basically going to be working on the world of this all of next year. Even with Cat Heaven, I spent two years on that, and I basically worked on the world of that for the entire, maybe a year and a half after that record. I mean, in reality, all of 2018, I basically just promoted that record or did videos just kept working on it. And I think I'm going to do the same with this.

When I found out that you were putting out something new, I went on to Spotify and I got a notification that you had an album coming out. And literally, I think I scared my friends. I started freaking out, and they were like, "What?" And I was like, "You guys don't understand. Something crazy is happening right now." How has people's reaction been as you've been teasing the album and coming out with singles, and how has all of that been making you feel?

It's just like wow, because anyone who works with me will be the first one to tell you that the business side of this or the "We're trying to make a career," I am so not focused on that at all. I have an idea and I'm going to waste three years of my life on it. All I can do is make the best art I possibly can, or be like, "Hey, would 15-year-old me get inspired or be excited about this?" I've built my entire career off of that concept. If the money comes, or if the success comes based off of that, that's all. That doesn't even need to happen. As long as I can survive and try to execute ideas that I have, I think that's all that matters to me. So I guess with saying that, I think the thing that is the most beautiful about this whole thing is just I don't think this album has crazy buzz at all right now. I put out a song and a video and I'm like, "Oh, sick, a hundred thousand streams in the first week.” To me, that's good. Maybe the full record needs to come out for people to fully get it. I think the amazing thing is that I didn't really know if the fans from Cat Heaven would stay? Would they still check in? And to be honest with you, I think those are the main people. I even checked the backend of Spotify recently, and it was like, my fan base is 90%, 22, 23 years old. And I'm like, that's crazy.

Then that adds up!

Those kids from five years ago grew up, and those are the main, and almost only people listening to me, which is beautiful. I think that's amazing. That whole concept of some kids starting high school and now maybe are either graduating college or something like that where it's this huge life change. I do think this record will impact people in the ways that I was feeling when I started it, honestly. I really think it's going to hit in that way for people where they're going to be like, "Oh, Cat Heaven meant something to me at this time. I was going through this. I was becoming an adult," and then this record will be like, "Oh, I'm out of college. I had my first love maybe, and I lost that." I think the music's going to resonate in a big way with the people who stayed on board.

I feel like you touched on that more specifically in "Amberwood" where you are speaking about growing up. I'm excited for the whole thing to release and to see new people getting to experience your music.

Well, first off, I think this record has more for everyone, honestly, even than Cat Heaven, which is crazy. I think so many people are going to be like, this one's my favorite. Or this one's my favorite. Because it kind of goes over a lot of different sub genres or just tones through the record. I think that it's really a grower thing where people have to sit with the record for a second and the dust kind of has to clear a little bit.

Well, take it from me as somebody that was like, "oh my God, Cat Heaven's the best thing ever." And now also listening to this one, it's all that I've been talking about. I'm really excited for just the mass audience to be able to hear the album from beginning to end, because I really do think that it takes you on a journey and a deeper insight into your mindset. If they were fans of Cat Heaven, they're going to be fans of this one as well.

Yeah. Thank you.

Is there a message that you want your audience to take away from this album?

I think the main thing is just enjoy the moment and enjoy the smaller things in life. We're all in the big race or whatever to do something with our lives and make some sort of impact. But I think more now than ever, the moments spent with people you love or the things you care about matter so much because of how fast everything is. I think the other thing is don't give up hope. I think it's an optimistic record.

I feel like people will definitely take all of that, and you can hear it through your sound and the songs on this album. But, I guess I have one more question left. So I want to talk about plans for touring and performing, and if you have anything in the works.

I don't want to say it too much, but the first half of next year.

Sick so soon. And are you excited about it?

I mean, I've been dreaming about it. The last show I ever did was a fucking nightmare.

Really?

It was a festival show and nothing worked. The line on "Amberwood" where I say "I had dreams of playing Coachella" or whatever. I don't think Coachella's the end all be all for me, but obviously when I was a kid, I was like, "Oh, I want to play shows and everything." I actually had a dream of me playing Coachella, and it actually went terribly wrong. This was three years ago or something, and it was just like, oh, the mic doesn't work and you're trying to plug in your phone. I don't know if I'm crazy, but I feel like other artists have this dream where they're trying to perform, but the mic won't turn on.

It's like Grimes' set.

I literally had that where I had this festival gig at the end of 2019. It was my last show and nothing was working. We literally got the mic working in the last five minutes. I performed two songs, with no in-ears. I couldn't hear the track. I just performed, went to the crowd, sang it, and then left. And that was literally the last show I played. So I have that dangling over me, and I'm like, fuck that. I've always loved live shows for what I think I can do with it. I actually don't love going to see live music that much. I don't go to shows very often other than DJ stuff, because I just have to be a really big fan to be fully in it, or it has to be a really energetic show. Either going to go see ASAP Rocky where everyone's jumping— that's obviously really fun for me. Or I have to go see My Bloody Valentine, where I'm just kind of obsessed and mesmerized. I have so many ideas for what I think the live show could be. I've been thinking about it for five years, so it's going to be easy for me. I think as soon as this album's out, I'm going to start working on it.

I feel like everyone will be really, really excited. Especially people in New York. I feel like so many people will come out for that.

Music

You’ll Never Guess DJ_Dave’s Next Move

Angelina Hazzouri — Before we get into this new remix, how did you get started making music with code?

DJ_Dave — I got started when I was in college, actually. I was taking random classes, trying to figure out what I wanted to do after I had switched my major from fashion. I was doing a bit of basic web development coding, and I discovered that I really enjoyed it. So I ended up taking a class in live coding, and we learned Sonic Pi, which is a live coding environment that I've been using ever since. I knew right away that it was something I was really obsessed with.

I graduated into COVID, so I had a year to just hang around and figure it out, honestly. I had a job—I was fully going in another direction. I didn't fully accept this as my career fate until a year after that. And then I realized this is something I really love and something that other people seem to enjoy discovering with me. So I thought, let me just take a leap of faith and just do this going forward.

That's so cool. Did you play instruments before, or did you kind of just discover [making] music through coding?

I did, I grew up playing instruments. I would jump around—I would take lessons in one instrument for about a year and then would be like, “I want to play something else!”

I never really produced anything though—I just enjoyed music and then discovering live coding and was like, “Oh, this is a kind of production structure that I actually really like. Wow.” I feel like what's cool about this is it's obviously your art, but it's heavily centered around technology.

What is your relationship to technology and how has that played a part in everything?

My relationship to technology is honestly, like, so weird. [laughs]

Obviously, I love certain areas of technology, and I'm very much at this intersection of art and technology, but I just think that it can be such a daunting genre of things. New technologies are really intimidating. It's like a whole new entity to learn how to communicate with.

I think a lot of times, it can steer people in the wrong direction or make them excited about something. I've just always tried to take the functionality of certain technologies and tools at face value and be like, at its core, what can this do? And how does it fit into my life and my work? And I've just kind of gone from there. It's really hard for me to back a new technology, honestly. Really? Yeah. My relationship to technology is interesting. It literally feels like a relationship. [laughs] There are certain things that I like to compromise on and certain things that I win on. So it's, you know, figuring out where we fit together.

Yeah, that sounds like a relationship. It's interesting because so much of what you do is dependent on technology. For everyone else, I feel like there's this whole conversation about whether AI will take over our jobs—but you kind of embrace that.

Yeah. I mean, AI is [pauses]... there are a lot of really obvious dangers of it. Those are what I think of first when I think of AI. Like there are a lot of really bad use cases of AI that we're already seeing, but they’re at face value. It's a really useful tool when used in good ways—like when it's used for making art in a way that's not taking other people's. Using it for unique output. AI is also helpful when it’s used to better our practices in certain areas. For example, I'm collaborating with an AI artist for this “infinite remix” release, but that's really the only time I've dabbled in AI so far. So, it’s like, you know, I'm treading lightly.

I'm super interested to hear more about the infinite remix with Dadabots—I don't even know what to ask because I don't fully understand it. So what can you tell me about it?

That's like the most valid question ever. [laughs] I fully sat in a workshop with my two friends who made this and they explained everything about their process,and I’m still not totally sure how it works. But basically they are fine artists / musicians, and they’ve been developing their AI tools for years. They’re known for a live stream they’ve had running since 2018, which is possibly the longest running YouTube live stream ever and it’s constantly producing unique content.

Oh my God?

High level overview — their AI model is trained on what certain genres sound like, for example, the drum patterns or vocal melodies a genre would use. And so their live stream that’s been running for 6 years has been constantly spitting out a long, long version of a death metal song

Oh my God.

Yeah. I always thought they were super cool ever since we met on my university tour, and I knew I wanted to collaborate when we met. When it came time for Naive to come out, it seemed really right to collaborate with them, and I asked them, “What if you just use the same model that you have? What if you just give it the stems of my song “Naive” and we just start a live stream that remixes it for however long?”

That’s insane, I can’t wait to stream the remix. When “Naive" originally came out, you did the whole thing on Instagram making it look like your account got hacked, which was so sick.

Thank you.

I also feel like it's low-key a risk to make it look like your Instagram got hacked. What was the thinking behind that? Were you nervous at all that people were going to report your Instagram for being hacked?

Yes! Actually, I got my Instagram taken down for a little—it's so funny, dude—because yeah, I knew that there were risks associated. I was like, a lot of people are going to think this is real. I lost a few hundred followers, but I also gained a few hundred new ones. I just know that honestly, there's that element of shock value.

The whole concept was that I want people to genuinely question the origins of everything that I was about to put out for the next couple of weeks and question if it's safe, if it's me. I wanted to instill doubt in people about my motives or whose motives are behind all of it.

Never let them know your next move.

Never let them know my next move. I made sure I was really careful to drop hints as much as I could, because I knew it was going to be a puzzle—something that people could solve. It was actually so crazy because after I posted my first Instagram—the one that really got people—a couple of people in my Discord immediately solved the whole thing.

From one post? They know you too well.

I know, they immediately got it. They were like, “She's releasing a song called ‘Naive’ on August 29th.” It was crazy.

What do you think you'll do after this project with Dadabots? Do you think this will be a series?

After this phase, I'm going to be going into this phase of transparency and cybersecurity. I want to have cybersecurity, with a much more trustworthy vibe.

Because if my last release was all about being sketchy and mysterious and almost malicious, I want the next phase to be all about being transparent.Using technology only for good, having accessible products that people can interact with—that sort of thing.

There's obviously going to be music and then outside of that, there will be projects that have more of an honest identity, which I'm excited about.

That sounds so cool. It sounds like you're building a world, if that makes sense. I feel like what you do obviously transcends just music because it's not just music.

Yeah, it was with Josh [Kohno] and Sophia [Castillo] that we came up with this world-building idea. I've always been almost overwhelmed with the amount of things that I want to fit into my project because if I kept it to just music, I would literally be missing parts. I wouldn't be able to work with certain people that I want to, or I wouldn't be able to have this global perspective on things if I didn't expand it outside of music. So this just ended up being the perfect framework for me to include everyone that I wanted to.

This ended up being the solution, and it's been so perfect and fun.