It certainly does have a direct and pop-y vibe, but still keeps with the artist's mystical energy. This song will make you fall in love, if not harder and faster with your lover, then with Merely.
Listen below.
Although the band has received critical acclaim and praise for the recordings themselves, Chanel Beads' immersive performances are in a lane of their own, offering re-worked tracks that take on a whole new life and sound onstage with Shane’s spirited act alongside frequent collaborators Maya McGrory (on vocals & guitar), and Zachary Paul (violin). As of late, Chanel Beads has been on a tear, beating the ‘Dimes Square and Nolita-scene band’ allegations to a pulp with can’t-miss shows. Playing coast to coast and overseas, the band just played another round of shows in the UK before returning to New York ahead of the North American leg of their tour.
Fresh off his return flight from across the pond back to his home in Brooklyn, Shane sat down with office to unravel his unique creative process informed by two "F's" (feeling & function), the drawbacks of performing in caves, and the complicated, toxic relationship artists have with suits, algorithms and streaming platforms like Spotify.
Jack Kissane— My introduction to Chanel Beads was through word of mouth from a friend, which — in my opinion — is kind of the most organic way to discover music. I read that in a past interview, you threw a stray at the Spotify algorithm and the machine that it is. Can you expand on your thoughts about having your music found organically versus the algorithm just pushing it? And have you noticed a huge shift in who attends your shows since "EF" went nuclear?
Shane Lavers— Yeah, definitely. When we were in the uk, there were definitely some really sweet younger people that I think kind of got it from algorithmic stuff or whatever. But I don't know, I obviously have lots of thoughts and things to say [about Spotify], but yeah, you can't really control it, and sometimes I'm worried that the little balloon I was trying to blow up has already popped or something because I feel like my favorite experience with music is kind of more of a private one. And so it’s kind of sad to feel like people encounter it in a way that doesn't feel like it's just theirs. I'd rather have people listen to the music and feel like they're kind of alone with it in a sense. Or they can bring what they want and take what they want from it, or they have ownership over the music because all my favorite stuff, I feel like I have a personal relationship with it or that I have something to say to it and has something to say to me. So yeah, I mean, Spotify is so fucking stupid too. As a business model and everything. It's just brought an untold amount of rot into the music business world, but at the same time, it's so sick to be able to listen to whatever you want. And I guess the one positive thing I'll say about Spotify – but it's not unique to just Spotify – is that through related artists and stuff like that, there's just so much. And then seeing other people post public podcasts or playlists, you can do so much fun music discovery.
Yeah, I guess there are two sides to the coin with that, but I definitely feel you with the personal experience though, like the things I come across organically, just hit differently. Nothing beats randomly stumbling across a sick opener at a random show, because then you have that in-person experience and can attach that artist to a certain moment in time versus listening to an album and then a random song popping up after it on shuffle. Which is still chill, but it’s still fuck Spotify.
Yeah, I don't really know how I feel about algorithmic stuff because for XY reasons, Fuck Spotify, but I think I don't really have a problem with how you come across it so much as if it actually engages with you.
I feel like I get fed a lot of nonsense most of the time, but hey, I mean, we're in the AI era of society now.
Yeah, with your job you're probably more interested in music discovery than I am too. I actually don't really engage. I don't really need to use algorithmic or curatorial music stuff very much. I guess I'm not very conscious of how I'm encountering music these days.
Do you listen to a lot of music now? I mean, I talk to artists and a lot of them say that they're so invested in their own work that it kind of becomes all-consuming and listening to other music can get in the way of original creative thoughts. Do you ever find that to be the case, or are you just completely open to how you listen to music?
I'm pretty open. I've never been like, ‘Oh, I need to work on my album or sound so I need to hermetically seal myself off from influences.’ When I'm working on music, I never don't want to hear something because of the way It will affect the way I'm making music. Because my approach to a lot of the music that I make is based on a feeling. It's not really approaching it with a, ‘Oh, here's a vibe or a sound I want to create,’ so much as it’s more ‘Here's a feeling I want to convey.’ And so as much as anybody will try to rip something off, I won't make a song or finish it or want to put it out unless it's starting from an intellectual or emotional feeling of mine and feel that music is the route to convey it rather than the other way around.
I only ask that because I feel like a lot of the music you make feels self-referential vs. sounding like anything else that I've ever heard. For the past few months, your music has been the coolest stuff to put my friends onto because of how unique it feels. It’s just hard to put a label on it. I am sure you've seen articles trying to put a name to your sound.
Yeah, it's funny. I remember seeing this word when I was really young, and now it’s coming up for my music. Hypnogogic pop or something. So it's kind of funny. I always thought that was not a genre. I don't think of my music as dreamy at all or dreamlike or surreal. So it's kind of funny that people kind of attach those themes to it. My approach just feels kind of like making folk music or just making a folk song. But it's like we make it on the computer, and we don't really have a studio to go to, so it's just like however you can assemble it in kind of an impatient way. I collaborate a lot with Maya [McGrory] and Zach [Paul], and there is kind of this thing of like, ‘Hey, are you free today to help?’ Like I have an idea for maybe a string thing Zach can do, and if he's not free, I'm not going to sit on my thumbs, I'm just going to work on it myself. And then sometimes I'll be like, ‘I like it, this works.’ So with genre and stuff like that, it's just the making of the music to match a feeling. It's just a functional process. Like, I'm feeling this emotion and I want to work on it. That also relates to why I would never be like, ‘Oh, I'm not going to listen to music right now because I’m working on my own stuff.’ Because it's like there's no conscious effort to marry what I'm listening to, to what I'm working on. Because the thing that I'm working on is what I have in front of me. Like we just bought a cello. I dunno, just whatever's there, it's very functional and it's very problem solving in a way. To me it feels like a little unrelated to a certain genre.
Definitely, and you bringing up that functional point makes a lot of sense because I love how you marry synthetic and acoustic instruments together. And it especially comes out in your live show performances. I've seen some of the recorded live performances and at times the songs sound almost completely different than how they do on DSPs. Have you ever performed a song and thought, ‘damn, I wish we recorded it initially and published it that way?’
Yeah, I mean, the way we perform some of the songs kind of leads back to my point about functionality in that it's not really a choice of, ‘Oh, how do I make acoustic autotune music?’ It's just like, you can move quicker with autotune. I can focus on different things than I normally would if I didn't have the autotune on or something like that. And also, I don't use autotune all the time. I feel like people talk about a song thinking it has autotune when it doesn't.
Yeah, because you can sing with a pretty high register just by yourself, right?
With a microphone, you can sing quietly and higher than you can at a show. I feel like at a show, I'd much rather reach those notes by kind of screaming it or yelling it. Man, it's funny, I'm always self-conscious if we're just playing the songs too close to how they're recorded a little bit. But there's a bunch of music where I'm like, if I go back and listen to the recording, I'm like, ‘Oh, this is almost way more wimpy than I thought it was from the way that we've been playing it.’ And I'm kind of like, ‘Oh yeah, I wish I could have brought more intensity to stuff.’ But at the same time, maybe some artists just operate from what kind of music they want to make or something. And I always feel a little bit annoyed in that I feel very limited in what I can do musically in terms of what I feel motivated to finish. I feel like I don't really have enough decision making in my own music because of the functionality of it. It's like it works or it doesn't work to me. And so it just comes out how it comes out. And it's like if I want to make an intense song, I have no idea if it'll come out intense or not. Same thing if I want to make a high energy song or not. I can't really tell if I'm going to end up coming up with one at the end of the night or whatever. Sometimes I start with a high intensity song, but then it turns into this mellower or stranger thing, or vice versa where it's like, I'm trying to stretch something out into this more ambient thing, and then it just comes out totally different. Sometimes it feels like decisions weren't made along the way, even though technically you are making them. It’s more just deciding if something is working or not. It's like if you're tinkering with something and you don't look up and all of a sudden hours have passed and it's totally different from what you thought it was intially. You didn't really feel like you made what it’s in front of you it kind of just took its own shape that way.
Yeah, sometimes it feels like things just take their own course. When I'm writing, sometimes I go in with a certain perspective and things just change along the way, and it becomes something entirely different.
Or when you're talking out loud about something that you don't know how you feel about it until you say it.
Circling back to the live shows, I had heard from the same friend who put me on to your music, that you had done a show in a train tunnel?
Yeah.
Is that the craziest place that you've performed and is there a good story to that?
I mean, we didn't organize the show, so I kind of feel bad because people are like, ‘Oh, Chanel Beads played in a train tunnel,’ But our friends organized the show, and they played too. So I feel like I have to give credit to GodCaster and YHWH Nailgun, the ones who put the show on. We just played first, and yeah, they're the ones who did all the heavy lifting. When the cops came, they arrested one of the Godcaster guys' brother, and they tried to find them. So yeah, Godcaster found this place and organized this awesome show in a train tunnel.
Where was this? In New York?
Yeah, it was in Brooklyn. The spot kind of got blown up because I think we thought we were being clever and playing in a place that was inobtrusive. They talked to the guy living really close to it a week prior, and they gave him some money and stuff, but I guess the spot just got kind of blew up and there was a show there every day for six days. The cops came every day, and a local bar was like, ‘You guys, please stop doing shows here.’ And I was like, ‘Yeah, fair enough. This is actually pretty disruptive.’ But yeah, I dunno, that didn't feel like the craziest place. We've done some weird little runs where it's like we have no idea what the space is until we get there. And then also, what feels crazy to you isn't as crazy to other people where it's like, we played a little loft in France where you could barely see in front of your hand because of all the cigarette smoke and shit. That's new to me, and that was weird. Or we played this place in London where you kind of feel like you're in a grain silo and there's no stage. On tour you're exhausted, and there's different drugs in different cities and stuff, so it's like, yeah, I dunno it's really hard to say what the weirdest one is. There's a venue in Seattle that's like an old pharmacy and they just kept it up. Like, it looks like a fully functioning pharmacy in there…
Y’all were posted up and performing in a drugstore's aisle? That's crazy.
Yeah, yeah. In the lotion aisle! Honestly, if I had to give you one answer on the craziest place we’ve played, my answer would be boring. We played a college where it was like literally during a study hall. Everyone was on their computer with headphones. And I was like, ‘Why the fuck are we here playing this?’ But the colleges have money, so it helps fund the tour. We played the worst show to people who didn’t care about us, it's Tuesday night, and half the people have headphones on and they're just on their computer. To me, that's the craziest show because it's like, what’s the point? Yeah, also with the train tunnel thing, I always call it a cave, even though it's not a cave. It was literally a train track tunnel.
Hey man, this is a written interview, we could call it a cave in the final edit, honestly.
Yeah, yeah. It's up for dispute if it's a cave or a tunnel!
Another thing I think is really cool about your live shows is the intimate aspect that you guys put forth in each show. I think I read somewhere that you would much prefer playing on the same level versus being on a stage above the audience. Is there a certain rationale behind that, or is it just based off preference?
Well, I think, I actually get asked this a lot and I'm kind of trying not to talk about stage stuff in interviews a little bit, because you just play where you're lucky to play. And if people pay to see it, I don't want to act like, ‘Oh, I don't fucking like this stage.’ It's like, if you paid 30 bucks, I'm going to try to give a good show for it. But yeah, I just think people try to pigeonhole us into this. I'm surprised how stubborn people are about what they think live music should be. And so when we play bigger stages, everyone's like, ‘Where's the drum kit?’ And all this shit. And I'm like, ‘I don't know.’ When I think about my most impactful live music experiences, a lot of it's like DJ stuff. I am pretty compelled with the act of playing recorded music in a live setting without being a sample guy or something like that. Because honestly, I don't really feel like a sampler. I don't sample other people, I just assemble it in a way that you would write or do notation or something. So I think there's something really compelling about playing recorded music and seeing how it's interacting with the space, crowd, the night, and the event [as a whole] and then how your emotional response to it can change too when you put all those things together. And so performing to that with recorded music is still really compelling to me. So it's more annoying and there's more expectations that I don't agree with in these bigger stages or bigger arenas, but also maybe a lot of that's projection. I don't know. Yeah, I don't want to imagine an enemy and just be like shadowboxing in an arena because I think someone has a problem with it.
Your Day Will Come is genuinely one of my favorite releases of this year. You put forth these crazy collages of the acoustic with the synthetic, and then you have random sound bites, and ambient textures, and then on top of all of that, you have this violin being such an integral, almost backbone to the project itself, which is just really a cool touch. Was there a certain moment in time or a specific track, the sound all clicked for you? And you're like, ‘Oh yeah, this is my sound.’ Or do you feel like that hasn't happened yet?
Well, I've been making music for so long, and then I just took a big huge break between putting stuff out because I think I was struggling with not wanting to make a whole ambient record, or a whole rock record. I was kind of feeling overwhelmed by distinctions and structures of stuff. And so I think a few years ago I just felt pretty liberated of no longer thinking about them. It's just music, it's just recordings, and you treat any kind of sound source the same and it just becomes functional. And so it's like the reason that I use a lot of synthetic MIDI string sounds on the record is because I think it almost feels like it doesn't get in the way of things. I mean obviously [synthetic strings] have a ton of preexisting connotations in your brain, but if I start from there, I'm like, ‘Well, it's almost like anti sound design music’ or something like that because it's such a ubiquitous signifier of a sound you've already heard. And it's not like an acoustic sound that I'm producing myself. So I think it kind of feels like, ‘Okay, now that that's out of the way, now I can focus on what kind of thought or feeling that I want to explore at that point.’ It’s like finding yourself in an already existing thing.
Another thing that really stands out to me with Chanel Beads is the aesthetics and the visuals that you use for all the releases with the album covers, music videos, or even the visualizers. It is all really either incredibly nostalgic or super eerie, almost as if you collected them all from an untouched storage attic where there’s an 18th-century painting right next to a bunch of dusty VHS tapes. How'd you come up with this creative direction? Is that led by the music or kind of vice versa?
It's definitely not led by the music. It's kind of, just my taste, *laughs* I guess. Yeah I feel really critical of visual art styles because I'm almost salty that some stuff that I really like, that I feel like maybe I was doing at the time, is just so easy to replicate. So by the time you're like, ‘Oh, that's cool,’ everyone can just do it. And if you put, I don't know, the iPhone Flash 0.5 camera thing, that's just what everything looks like now. So it's cool because it's like democratized. But yea I don’t know, it's funny, a lot of people seem to see it as this big, unified...
... "Unified Thought?"
Yeah. [Laughs] This unified art thing that I'm doing, doesn’t really have a ton of intention behind it, honestly. Maybe I'm failing at what I'm trying to do because I’m not trying to have the visuals get in the way of the music, but maybe they're calling too much attention to themselves and maybe I have to rethink the approach. But I think I'm always worried that the music is too nostalgic because to me it's not, it's usually about reckoning with an issue that I have in the moment. So it's not really nostalgic, it's just maybe about the cumulation of a feeling or emotion. So I think because there's that kind of, ‘Where have we been? Where are we going?’ thing that reads like nostalgia to people. Like [Your Day Will Come's cover art] is just a painting that I liked, but I really liked this one little section of it. I just thought it was compelling. I guess the artwork was inspired by the music in a sense of, I think it's interesting to kind of try to have something feel like it extends beyond the frame, but also have the piece of it represent the whole, but also at the same time comments on the whole in a way that maybe misrepresents the whole. So I think it's by just focusing on this one girl's expression, you're missing the huge fire, which I think is actually the center of the painting. The painting is called Midsummer Eve Bonfire on Skagen Beach. I feel like that kind of mirrors, I guess some of the approach to the sentiment of lyrics and then the sentiment of the approach to constructing the sound. As much as I'm like, nothing's thought out, I think it's an approach that I like when I'm not thinking about the approach itself, but rather when my music just works its way into its own thing.
We sat down with Lone after his packed performance at Ksubi’s NYFW event, where smoke filled the air, and people spilled out from the dressing room into the cobblestone streets of SoHo, which had just been defaced with spray paint — someone's Mercedes-Benz caught in the crossfire. In our conversation, Lone spoke about his journey with manifestation, his decision to live without a stylist, and the meaning behind the term aura, which frequently appears in his comment sections.
Jack Kissane— Lone! How’s New York Fashion Week been treating you?
Destroy Lonely— It was lit. That shit was cool.
How's it been the weeks following the release of the album?
Shit, I've been enjoying just seeing everybody's reactions and listening to what my friends got to say and my family and shit. It is been a really good time actually.
That's awesome to hear. It's currently #1 on Billboard's top R&B and Hip-Hop Album chart right now. How's it feel to get recognition like that?
Shit, I don't know how it feels yet. I would never really understand and try to even judge myself by shit like that, but I just appreciate my fans and shit for fucking with me enough for something like that to happen and I feel blessed.
You talk about listening to feedback from your fans. Is that usually how you measure success after dropping music? How do you know if something's hitting for you?
Well, it definitely starts with me and my friends and my team first and then from there I look at how my fans are reacting and shit and that definitely for the better, or for the worse affects how I feel about what I have going on at the time.
The album is pretty inescapable in my world, and personally my favorite cut off of it is the opening track "Forever." The way the song builds with the instrumentation into your verse is crazy. Who sang the intro to the track?
Yeah, it's a sample from this band called All Saints, but yeah [lil88] had found a sample through my fans in a way.
How heavy of a hand do you have in the creative direction for everything we see as fans?
It is totally my hand, that part. Everything creatively is done on my end from the music to how it looks to how it sounds. Everything comes from my brand and then I push it out to whoever can help me execute the vision that I have. But it always starts from me just having some random idea that I want to bring to life. It always starts with me and it always ends with me.
Throughout the project and on your Instagram there's a constant theme of you talking about Baby Money. Where did that name and image come from and what does that mean to you?
So it really started with my friends Ken & 88. They used to call me 'Money Lone' and then got all my friends to call me that at the time. I was the youngest so I just kind of changed it into "Baby Money," but that just started from some real personal friends, joking around shit.
Word, I mean that song ["Baby Money'] off the project is definitely up there as one of my favorites too. I'm 20 years old and in school and so obviously you and your music are almost inescapable, but especially "Baby Money," I hear it from the time I wake up with my friends playing it in the crib, to commuting to school through my own doing, then especially at the functions. It's reallly playing everywhere man.
That's hard!
Do you have a favorite track to perform? Obviously you haven't performed tracks off the new album yet, but going into this new tour, how do you think your sets will differ from your No Stylist tour and do you have a favorite song that you're looking forward to performing?
Yeah, totally. I feel like the sets will just be way more energetic, way louder, way crazier, just because of the tone of the music that I dropped this time, but also a lot more welcoming to old and new fans. I got a larger discography of music now I guess, so I'll be able to mix a whole bunch of things together and play with my sounds and shit. But I'm really excited to perform "PASS ME THE KEYS," "LOCK IN," "SAY THAT, and "NO WORRIES." Like I want to perform all the lit songs for sure. I don't see myself as the craziest most turnt up artist, so it's like now I feel like I got some bangers that I could do that with.
Beyond music, what's your favorite medium to express yourself with? Do you have any hidden talents? Or how are you spending your time beyond the studio & stages?
[Laughs] Nah, I wish I could paint. That's pretty awesome. But yeah, I got a lot of things that I'm into outside of making music. I actually do really like four-wheelers and dirt bikes and shit. I like snowboarding, I play video games a lot, and I like fashion of course. I don't know I'm just really simple to be honest like I'm just inspired by life and everyday shit, honestly. I just live in my brain for real.
I've seen recently you did a shoot with Alpine Reserve. Is that shift in the stuff that you're wearing and you're style overall due to these new experiences as far as going on tour and visiting different cities and doing outdoor activities?
Yeah, a million percent because everything I do is inspired by something that I got going on in my real life at the time. I don't really just be pulling shit just from nowhere, so a hundred percent inspired by shit that I'm on. I just got some fast ass cars and shit. I'm just doing some X Games shit. [Laughs] That sounds corny, but I don't know. That's just how I feel right now.
Before the rap money came through what was your closet looking like? Like what were you stepping in when you were in high school?
Shit, when I was in school I was broke as shit, so I was wearing fucking Vans and Converse. It was normal H&M, black skinny jeans, and whatever. Or just any cool T-shirt I can get my hands on. Then I started making my own money doing whatever the fuck I was doing back then. I would wear Supreme and Palace. But I don't know, I got into clothes mad early because even before I was rapping for a little period of time in between and after school and shit, I had found a way to make money so I wasn't fucked up or nothing. I just wasn't rich as hell.
You described wearing Palace and Supreme. Did you grow up skating or was it just like you were tapped in with skate culture and that was the shit to wear?
Both. When I was at 12, 13, I was really really into skateboarding. I wanted to skateboard so bad, but then I had fell and fucked my arm up and I just gave up on that shit. But I love skate culture. That shit is another piece of the world that inspired my whole existence.
Yeah totally, I grew up on the same shit being close to soccer but always idolizing skate culture and live that to this day. Because yeah, fashion-wise, skate culture has always had an instrumental role in what people are wearing and what's cool or not. Recently you've worked with more so capital-F fashion labels like Givenchy, Marc Jacobs, and notably 1017 ALYX 9SM. What is your favorite brand to work with in the fashion world?
I couldn't necessarily say that I have a favorite just because I appreciate the art entirely and I'm just honored to be able to put my 2 cents in or just push the culture forward in any way. So I can't necessarily pinpoint a favorite, but I do love that world and respect it because I'm a student of shit and I didn't come up going to fashion school or really knowing too much about clothes unless it was something that I was into or wanted to study. So I'm just learning and just appreciating it for real.
When do you think you became a student of the fashion game? Was that a recent thing? I know that you said that you've been tapped in with the culture for a minute, but as far as really studying the art of it itself, did that only come recently with all of the success you've been having in music?
No, fuck no. No way. I've been the same person way before I was "successful" in music. I wouldn't even look at myself right now as being that successful. I guess I got a different definition of success, but hell nah, bro. I didn't have this shit, but I was definitely well aware of what I liked and what I wanted to learn about and the actual, I guess for lack of better words, textbook knowledge of fashion, brands, and designers way before I ever put on some [designer] clothes and it definitely didn't have nothing to do with money or rapping.
I've read that you're super into and grounded in manifestation, and in this interview, you've mentioned the different ways that you perceive success. Who or what got you into manifestation?
Honestly, my mom and my grandma for real. They raised me telling me I can do whatever the fuck I want. My folks weren't restricting me or telling me I can't do this or that. They was just always supportive and just saying 'Shit, if you could believe it, you could do it.' Literally from the time I popped out the fucking pussy, that's what n*ggas was telling me. So it is not something that I got into or something that I learned. It's just I always been like that my whole life. Believing in anything I want or feel like I could achieve and get. I guess that's just how I am as a person. And then I learned that it was called manifestation and all that shit and all the extra intricate words that people throw on top of it. I learned that shit and realized, "Oh, I've been doing this my whole life."
What's it like having such an instrumental role in one of the most influential moments in music and culture right now as far as being a part of Opium?
I really just am honored to be a part of something like it and I appreciate my older brother [Playboy] Carti for giving me the opportunity to stand next to him. And also, I appreciate my brother Ken (Ken Carson) my brothers Homixide Gang. It is something that I cherish a lot and I personally don't want anything to change or nothing. I'm very happy with where I'm at and I'm happy to be here.
Lastly, what are your thoughts on the term aura and are the fans dragging it?
[Laughs] I feel like I shouldn't answer this, but I will. They just need to let people live, man. I feel like I'm getting old. I just don't understand the internet anymore. I don't understand what's right. I don't understand what's wrong. I just know I'm going to do what the fuck I'm going to do and shit... [Laughs] Fuck that!
denim bra PRADA, bracelet SANTANGELO, earrings SANTANGELO, skirt FEY FEY WORLDWIDE, shoes INVASIVE MODIFICATION
Porches— What’s up Sab?
Sabrina Fuentes— Hi, how you doing?
I'm good. You're in London right now?
Yeah, I'm in London right now. I'm at a recording studio with my friend Jacob Budge doing a session and hanging out, and I'm going to go out to carnival parties tonight. What are you doing?
That sounds banging. I'm just home doing this call with you and then I'm going to go to the studio and work on some stuff today. How long have you been in London?
Been in London for about a week now, but I was in Berlin right before. I was staying with my friend, I'd never been there.
left: dress GAUNTLETT CHENG, right: jacket, belts, skirt, loafers PRADA, socks STYLIST’S OWN
That's cool. I was thinking about the last time I saw you, you came by the studio and you had just been in Mikey’s studio and wrote 50 songs or something like that, right?
Yeah, I was at Mikey’s and wrote like 35 songs.
And then we made some songs. How many songs do you have now?
Yeah, I have no idea how many songs I have at this point. Not all that I've ever done. There's a lot of sketches that aren't quite finished, but definitely more than 35 at this point. I think probably closer to 40-50.
Are you working on anything specific, like the next record or just making a bunch of stuff right now?
Yeah, I'm working on the next record and also just collaborating with friends, seeing where everything takes us. I'm letting it figure itself out. We're just trying every creative avenue that we want to explore more, did some heavier rock stuff, some emo stuff, some indie stuff, some electronic stuff. We're trying to figure out what works for the next full length album, exploring all the ideas that we’ve been sitting on for a while.
I've been listening to the last EP a bunch, even more just before our chat and it's super sick. I like it more each time. It's kind of hard for artists to shift genres sometimes because it can sometimes feel like putting on a tacky outfit. There's this really strong throughline in your lyrics and in your voice that sort of stands up to a drastically different production style from the other Pretty Sick sick stuff. It got me excited to hear what you've been working on.
I feel like when you complete something, it's the most exciting time to work on new stuff because you're not stuck in one world and you can just throw a bunch of shit at the wall and just wait until something starts to feel right.
Yeah, that's exactly where we're at right now. It's nice that after releasing something, you feel like you can let that idea go and move on to exploring new things. I feel like I can put down the world that the last EP was inhabiting and see what else we can do, like you said, throwing stuff on the wall and seeing what sticks.
Did you work on music with Woesum in person or was it all virtual?
It was all in person.
In New York or somewhere else?
Here in London in a small studio with a bunch of synths and a booth where we could play any instruments we wanted to track in. We figured that we would start with the strongest ones and put that foot forward and then see what else we wanted to explore. We made those songs as soon as I finished Make Me Sick Makes Me Smile.
We were going in and out of the studio every couple of months, and it was a lot of fun since we got along really well. We did some sessions where we were bouncing off the walls full of ideas, writing four or five songs a day. It's a way of writing that I never really got to explore that much before. I would write with a band, coming up with ideas with other musicians in the room or, more often than not, write the whole thing on bass with lyrics, melody, some vague guitar and drum parts then bring it to the band to record.
It was cool working with a producer who mostly worked with rappers who show up with nothing prepared and just play off of the beats that he makes. I feel like his production style inspires so much verbally and melodically and it's such a cool way to explore songwriting. It was more fun to write songs and also a faster way for me to write songs than anything I’ve tried before. Arthur's a really sweet and nurturing producer as well, which is always great.
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Do you feel like that’s why you're doing more sessions with producers now and what not? Did it unlock some kind of collaboration thing in you?
Yeah, definitely. I mean, we've been doing sessions a couple different ways, meeting with a bunch of different producers. I think some producers really bring a lot to the table and others just bring more of you out of you. Then there's shady producers that wait for you to come up with ideas and then try to take credit for them. Up until meeting Arthur, when I would write in the room with people, that's what would end up happening more often than not and I would leave frustrated because I just did all this work not feeling like it brought out anything that I couldn't have just done on my own computer.
Working with different producers has been about seeing if there’s anybody we really click with. We’ve been doing a few sessions of the band as the band — me, Ben and Ava with no production. Now I think we’re going back to some old friends we've worked with before.
We had the guys from Nation come by and we invited Cat Power to sing on something too, bringing in people who might add a different vibe in the studio. I’ve also been in sessions with producers like Jacob, who I’m with today, that are just one-on-one. I’m also figuring out which songs from all these different sessions fit in one semi-unified world.
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Yeah, I feel like the one thing about making music with a bunch of different people and in different scenarios is that it does take a long time for the general vibe to make itself known. At first, it doesn't sound like you're setting out to achieve this thing you're imagining and then you get there. I saw you at Nublu when you played solo. What do you like about playing solo versus playing with a band?
Well it wasn’t properly solo because Ben was playing bass, but it’s definitely a new experience. I've never really played without a band before. I never even do solo acoustic shit because I don't play guitar, I play bass. I do like not having to play bass on stage, I think it’s fucking annoying and I'd rather just sing so that was really exciting and fun for me. It’s like karaoke and I can put a lot more towards performing and singing. But yeah, that was the second time we'd ever done something like that and afterwards, we missed Ava immediately. After we played we told her she needed to figure out how to play some electronic drum pages so that we could have her on stage. It’s a lot more fun when it’s all of us.
Although, it’s nice to have the option to play a full set with just backing tracks and a bass. It gives us more opportunity to play in venues that are not compatible with full bands all the time. You know what I mean? Small spaces definitely. The first time we played the set was at a show at the restaurant underneath Search and Destroy, Kenka, and it was awesome; really, really chill. It makes it so much easier to do fun, intimate gigs like that when you don't have to bring in a whole drum kit and a whole bunch of amps and a crazy system. There's a lot of freedom as to where and when we can play, on the drop of a dime.
I know the live drums not being there is sort of tragic sometimes. It sounded sick and it definitely is kind of miraculous to not have to have a guitar on your shoulder and worry about playing the right parts. I remember how I felt the first time I did it, super awkward like I was at a high school dance or something. I didn't know what to do with my body or my arms or whatever. And then I feel like slowly I started to really enjoy it more than being strapped to a guitar these days.
Every once in a while there's a song that always feels good to play on your instrument while singing it, but for the most part I would rather have more space with my body and voice to give the best performance. I think that I can definitely sing better when I don't have a big heavy instrument pushing on my diaphragm. I can project and strain a lot less. I do a lot of karaoke in my free time, so I'm very comfortable with just the microphone.
You looked like a natural there for sure. Do you have any shows coming up on the books right now or are you just grinding in the studio?
Not so many shows right now, just trying to write as much as possible, taking a breather as well, just because it's been a long year. I just moved back to New York after living in London for five years, so relocating was a lot. Dealing with personal, emotional stuff and then just having released the EP, I think it's just a well-deserved break for me. Sessions like these are relaxing and I love going on tour, but it's physically draining for obvious reasons and I think for now I'm just slowing my pace a little bit. I'm from New York, where you're always trying to get things done as fast as possible, and I don't feel like doing that anymore. I want the next release to be fully thought out and complete. Not that everything else we’ve put out hasn't been. I’m not usually a perfectionist — I normally leave space for human error in projects in that way — but now I want to take my time and revisit the work until it’s exactly what I want.
What’s the song you’re writing right now?
I’m working on two. The first one is just kind of a snarky and fun song. “I know what boys like” type of thing. It’s about balling out and how it must suck to watch me ball out all the time if you're not in my life anymore. Then this next one is probably going to be a bit rockier and grunge because that seems like the direction we're headed in. So some more melancholic lyrics on that one probably, but it's going pretty good.
That's sick. It seems like you. I’m excited to hear it all. It was fun hearing, seeing you write lyrics and work. Whenever you're back, we should hit it again.
Yeah, absolutely.
Cool, cool. Does that feel like a conversation to you?
That felt conversational to me.
