A Visit to Villa Borsani

CHARLIE wears SHIRT and PANTS by MARINE SERRE, RING by LL, LLC.

What was it like moving from Clover Hill to SAGA? Was there a cultural difference for you in terms of the change in restaurant, working in the kitchen, the clientele and that sort of thing?

Oh yeah, absolutely. I mean, it's totally different. I think cooking in Brooklyn, number one, is different. It's a different demographic. At the end of the day, you need to understand your demographic, understand the people you're trying to cook for. People move to Brooklyn for a reason. They want to get out the city. They either want a little bit of a quieter lifestyle or they're creatives that got older and now they want to start a family. So you got to understand that that's who you're cooking for. And certain people don’t really like crossing a bridge. So cooking in Brooklyn, culturally in the kitchen you had more of an underdog mentality that kind of fueled us like, Okay, we're trying to make a name in New York City, but we're in Brooklyn and we're kind of hidden. And it was easy to use that as the beat of the drum for the kitchen, opposed to moving to Manhattan and now you're in a skyscraper, 63 floors up, you have this crazy view, it's two Michelin Stars. And now you're cooking with expectations. So I think in the kitchen, it changes our energy a little bit because now you're defending a title. You also have guests who come here just because it's a two Michelin Star restaurant or just because of the view. I also find it fun that everyone who came to Brooklyn knew who we were and knew who I was. Versus here, people, they don't always know who we are.

They might just be coming for the restaurant.

They might just be coming for the restaurant. And I love that too because it gives us the opportunity to pull them in and show them why we are special and what that star means to us. You know what I mean? So I also enjoy that too. But it's a big difference. A big difference just from one star to two star – your clientele, being in the city, it's a totally different energy cooking up here. So I think those are the biggest changes in the restaurants; the energy of being an underdog versus cooking for expectations. And I think just giving people a feeling of being in New York City at this crazy location is a very different feeling in the dining room as well.

Left: CHARLIE wears JACKET, TOP, PANTS and SHOES by ZEGNA. Right: CHARLIE wears JACKET, SHIRT and PANTS by AMI PARIS, NECKLACE by VESPER OBSCURA, RINGS by LL, LLC.

Who taught you to cook?

Well, my culinary training, technically, you could argue that I’m self taught. My career is a little unorthodox in that way. I didn't really work under a restaurant group or a chef for a really long time and learn their cuisine and be one of their true disciples or something. So to me, my most important cooking lessons came very early on. I always talk about my grandmother. It wasn't that she taught me how to cook necessarily, but she definitely shaped my perspective on food and cooking for people. I saw how much time and labor and love she put into food and cooking for everybody. So that really shaped the way I approach food. I want to cook for people. I want to be there when you get in my restaurant. I want to put in time and love, and I care that it's coming from my hands. I've gotten that from her.

And I think my first chef, Chef Nick, is the person who taught me how to cook. So those are the two most impactful people in my cooking journey. She shaped the way I look at food and cooking for people and why I'm in a restaurant. And he gave me those first three years of my cooking career – working under him were really my formative years. And I came here not going to culinary school. He taught me how to make chicken stock, how to use a knife, how to sharpen a knife, how to cook proteins by feel, by touch, not with a thermometer. And that gave me a really big leg up when I moved to New York City because I think in New York City you learn how to work and it's really fun and it's really intense. But because I came here with a big foundation of touch and feel for food, it changed a lot for me. I had a head start in that way. 

CHARLIE wears JACKET, TANK TOP and PANTS by DOLCE & GABBANA.

Did Detroit shape your career and the way you cook?

Oh, absolutely. Because Detroit, it gave me the resilience I needed to exist in a very, very tough industry. It may sound harsh, but we talk about surviving these intense kitchens, these intense environments, and sometimes it is survival of the fittest. And it's not just about who can cook, but it's who can be the strongest mentally and emotionally and get through it. Because the idea of some of these hard kitchens is they are very militant. It's very like, ‘We will break you and we are going to break you, and then we're going to build you back up, and then you're going to be the person we need you to be.’

And I think if it wasn't for the love I've had of food based off my family and the culture in Detroit and also growing up in a tougher environment that I wouldn't have had tough skin. And Detroit allowed me to separate work from work. I told this story at a panel some months ago; chefs yelling and throwing things and kicking people and all this kind of stuff. It didn't scare me because I'm like, ‘These are not the real problems that I was around in my community.’ You know what I'm saying? This isn't violence or crime or nothing. This is just, you know, some French guy who's mad about the sauce is broken [laughs]. So it helped me in that way. I was able to really not take it personal and be able to make it about the work, and it helped me be successful. Because I can handle it. And your sous chefs recognize who can handle it and they'll put more time and attention into you.

Was there a moment you realized you wanted to cook professionally or was it a gradual thing?

So after high school, my mom wanted me to go to college. So I did a year in college and I got kicked out because I had no business being there. And then I came home and I was like 18, 19 at the time so I kind of took a year to think about what am I going to do. I started working a little bit and then, funny enough, I was doing valet at a hotel in Downtown Detroit, and I was really impressed by the restaurant, and one of my best friends had asked a sous chef to get me a stage there. So he actually set me up for my first stage. I don't know if I ever would've taken the initiative to get that job without that. And then just that first day in the kitchen, I was like, yeah, this is it. This is where I want to be. Now, I wasn't there very long because there I discovered that I wanted to do fine dining. It was like a bar and grill that I thought was fancy, but then behind the curtains, it was not a fancy restaurant at all. So after working there, I realized, okay, I want a different kind of environment. So that's why I chased after fine dining after that.

Left: CHARLIE wears SHIRT, TANK TOP and PANTS by HERMÈS, SUNGLASSES by GENTLE MONSTER. Right: CHARLIE wears SHIRT and PANTS by MARINE SERRE, RING by LL, LLC.

How's your work-life balance? I know you live in the building. I'm curious, can you switch off?

I think work-life balance is always an interesting conversation and you get a lot of different opinions on it. I don't know if I think there's such a thing when you're doing something like we do for a living. I think my work is my life. Being a chef is a part of my identity at this point. You know what I mean? So it's like I'm always working. If I'm out to dinner, I'm having a good time, but I could get inspired from something. Even if it's something I don't like, I'm kind of always thinking about food and the restaurant 24/7. If anything, I've learned that as you grow and you move into leadership, into management, that you have to learn where you're needed the most. I think as a young chef, you have a lot of ego and you think you can be at the restaurant for 18 hours a day. And reality is that, dude, you can't cook everything. You can't purchase everything. You can't do everything all the time. So I think I've learned to accept that. So I think that’s provided some balance, for sure. Like, I won't work myself into the ground anymore like I would've when I was younger. When I was younger; “Whatever you need, chef, I'll be here seven days a week, 14 hours a day, whatever you need.” And now I'm a little bit, “I need to go to sleep.”

Are you ever lying in bed at night like, ‘Oh shit, did I leave the stove on? Do I have to go up 20 floors to check?’

[Laughs] No, but it is more like you're just worried if you left work too early or not, because you have to learn to trust your team. We might have a VIP guest coming in at 9:30, but I’m like, ‘Dude, I've been here since 8:00am’. And if I got meetings tomorrow, I have to prioritize where I need to show up and be present at. So I wouldn't say that it's a perfect balance, but I will say I've learned to not work myself into the ground because I need to be fresh for my team and other people in the company, and I need to be on point. I'll make sure I get some sleep.

CHARLIE wears COAT, SHIRT and PANTS by BURBERRY.

I'm curious how far your creative input extends outside of cooking. Can you tell me about that? From the interior to the choice of plates…

Oh, everything. I get creative input on pretty much everything here. I mean, we have a great company and great team, so I don't have to have input on beverages or on wine, but the food kind of informs that. The food informs the wine program here and there and same with the beverage program. But yeah, I have creative input on everything, like the design of the logo, every plate I pick, style of service, how they talk about the food at the table, how they tell the story of the food, of the journey. So yeah, it's a lot of creative input.

Do you ever feel creatively restricted by the expectations of fine dining?

I think my biggest beef with it, if I have to choose something, I think there's a space where people think they can tell us what a good technique is. In fine dining, sometimes people want very straightforward things to look at as a technique; plate it very beautifully, or perfect dice or molds and different shapes and all that kind of stuff. Whereas I find that sometimes there are other things that I think are very fine dining techniques and can shine that people may not recognize. But we've seen a shift in fine dining. We've seen now people are a little bit more receptive to spicier food or different ingredients. People are more willing in fine dining now to eat food that's more playful, they can eat with their hands, it's a little bit shareable. So I think people have become a little more open-minded to a dining experience at a fine dining level, and I think continuing to push that is important. You can get to feel a little restricted when you start cooking for accolades and things like that. And then when you have all those rules, it makes it hard to be creative.

Left: CHARLIE wears JACKET, TANK TOP and PANTS by DOLCE & GABBANA, RINGS by LL, LLLC. Right: CHARLIE wears SHIRT, TOP, PANTS and SHOES by DIOR, RINGS by LL, LLC.

What does success as a chef look like to you?

That's a big question [laughs]. What does success as a chef look like to me? At what point? Like now or when I look back?

I guess I want to know if that's changed over time.

It's definitely changed over time. It's definitely changed over time. I think you could look at it through our generations of chefs. When I came up, chefs didn't really care about money. For example, you didn't cook to make a lot of money, and some chefs didn't care if their restaurants made money. Some of the best restaurants in restaurant history were known for not making profits, and they eventually closed, but they were just such special restaurants. The labor model didn't work, the cost didn't work, but it was so special. So I think in my generation that's kind of went away a little bit.

The fact that now as a chef you really have to make sure you're being creative, but you also have to make sure you're running a sustainable business has changed my perception of what success as a chef looks like. I feel like now you can have three Michelin Stars, but if you're not profitable, it's like, well, you don’t have that great of a business.  Or you can have a better business model but you don't have all the accolades or the ego. But I think for me, still, a successful chef creates a following and creates a community and you have a lot of longevity. I think longevity has always been very, very important to me. And I think when you're at that point to where every time you open a restaurant, people care or they're excited about it just because they trust you like that, I think that's a successful chef, whether you have accolades or not.

Did finding out you were the first Black chef in New York with a Michelin Star change anything for you?

Yeah, it changed my entire life [laughs].

But did it change anything in your mindset? Did you do anything differently after finding that out, or did it just change in the fact that people were like, “Oh, you're the first Black chef with a Michelin Star”? Like I guess that’s more an external change rather than if it changed your approach to cooking.

No, it didn't change my approach to cooking at all. I was on this journey regardless. If I wasn't the first one to get it, it wouldn't matter. I still would've been pushing for a second one. I think I had always known that no chef had three Michelin Stars as a Black chef, especially in the States. So that was my goal. I already kind of wanted three. So I think if I ever reached that point, it would be a lot more special. But it didn't change my approach to it. No, not at all.

CHARLIE wears SHIRT and PANTS by MARINE SERRE, SHOES by MANOLO BLAHNIK, RINGS by LL, LLC.

Is there anyone you've cooked for that resonated with you for one reason or another? 

Yeah, it's a long list. I mean, I don't really take it for granted. I think maybe ten years from now I probably would, but I think it's pretty special when anyone goes out their way to try your food. So I'm always excited. I'm trying to think of one that really, really stuck out because it's New York City, so you can randomly cook for celebrities here and there on the most random day – or important people here and there. Chefs stick out to me.

Cooking for other chefs?

Yeah, like Paul Liebrandt came to Clover Hill. That was a special one. Daniel Humm, that was special. I used to work for him. I guess one I'll never forget now is probably Solange. That was cool. She had eaten here before, I believe it was maybe two or three times before, but she just, ironically happened to book here on the very first day of my first menu. So it was just kind of like, what are the chances that Solange is eating here. It was such a big day for me doing the first menu here. So I think that will definitely stick with me for a very, very, very long time. It was a very memorable moment for me because it was more like I'm a fan of hers. It was actually her and Steve Lacey, so that will always be kind of special to me. I thought that was fucking cool. I haven't cooked for Obama yet, or Beyonce. Those would be cool.

Those will be next.

Yeah, that would be cool.

What do you want people to remember about your food or the dining experience when they leave?

Well, my biggest thing is that I want people to want to come back. And I think that sounds simple, but it's not at this level of restaurant. It's not common really at all. And I'm a fan of fine dining, but there's been a lot of meals where I went and you spend a lot of money and it is great. It's good, but you don't really feel like you want to come back. These are like special occasion restaurants. I don't expect people to eat here once a month. But if we're that place you come every year for an anniversary, that's special. Or every year for your birthday, that's special. Or if it was so good that you're like, “Wow, I got to bring my friends back here for the next menu.” That’s when you know you're really winning.