Let me ask you this question too, because when I first met Destinee we were allowed this space, and the first thing I thought of when I met her, was, ‘oh, you are being recognized for curating the biggest African-American group show at Christie’s.' Right, and the first thing I thought of was that, possibly you don't want to get pigeonholed into just being someone that is recognizing the gift and the talent and the contributions that only African-Americans, or the black race have, right. So I was like, I would love to do a show with you, and so I specifically made the paintings with her in mind and in the energy of that. But for yourself, being a very recognized, very fresh, and young, and respected archetype for your own individual contribution, and you being allowed to create your own language and, be given that respect, how important is it for you to have dialogue with people that aren't necessarily African-American like other painters?
Oh, very important. Honestly, when I talk about the work, I'm talking about the extraction and as the conversation between those people. So I see the abstraction as an immediate conversation with those people, and how to address people who are not African-American or black, looking at the work in one way or another.
Do you think that that being African-American helped you get to this point?
Uh, no. I think what it did is make me evaluate life in a different tone, in a different way. I think that everybody always has their own kind of problems in one way or another and they make their art in that way. I think that what is important is understanding where I am and how I want to function in the space of just living, especially in the United States. Being, African-American also makes it really hard to be the type of artists that I want to be, cause then essentially—
Me too, I'm also a minority, you know?
Yeah. Well with being a minority, the biggest thing about being a minority is that people always instinctively look at your work through your minority. So if I was to make just straight abstractions and have nothing to do with any type of history, as far as being African-American or black people would already put a lens on that work as going through that blackness.
I will say that from my observation, I think you nail it with figurative, but I think when I think of even my own lineage and ancestry and what I'm connected to in my own spirits or whatever, I think that you are respected and being paid attention to, and, I think it'd be amazing if you dissected the surface and just did pure abstraction. I feel like the difference between painting a narrative and a figure or some little motif as opposed to abstraction. I think that when we go to make abstract marks as painters, I feel like it's very much, paying homage and respect to the different tempos and kind of sounds of mark making.
Like if you and Rashid Johnson had large scale ,seven by eight foot canvases, and both of you just prime the background one color and just went for it with mark making. I feel like I would really, really like love to see the, the kind of the aggression and the, and the softness of your touch. And why I think that people don't see the softness of this, and they don't see like the kind of beautiful moment this is having. You know what I'm saying?
I think it depends on the people. I feel like some people definitely see it right away, and then others have to discover it.
Do you have a, do you think that you would do your audience, that kind of gift to let them see you just make the marks instead of like having to figure present?
Oh, well that's next!
Oh, that’s exciting. Because remember, I showed you Joan Mitchell.
Yeah! After you said that I really started looking at that.
You know got it got weird for me because I don't know if you think that someone that loves art as much as we do— there's always this certain thing where like you interact with humans and then, you know, I personally, and I'm being super genuine and sincere when I say this, I get excited when I see someone like yourself, because I know that this isn't cynical. Do you understand what I'm saying? This isn't like, I trolled Instagram and looked at some abstract equations and decided to copy some marks or some motifs, or some figures, do you understand what I'm saying? So when I met you, I just saw what Destinee had.
And I didn't know, because we've never met or we've never had a dialogue. I didn't really know how you were taking the rambling or the purging of how energetic I was about your work, you know what I mean? Because at the end of the day, you know, like, even with Julian Schnabel's movie about van Gogh, it was van Gogh and his buddy. Right. And then there was Basquiat and Warhol, you know? And I went to art school, got a BFA, but it was like Donald Bachelor and Lance and I observed Donald bachelor. So I just wanted to know, being in the position that you're in from time to time, is that like something that you think is important to merge with other artists and have those conversations and get excited about each other's magic that's happening in the studio and what they're creating?
Oh, all the time. I did it a lot through this phase, but also through Instagram and one way or another, and then branching out from there. When you were talking to me, I always make sure to think about quieting myself inside so that I can really listen. And so when you were talking and you, you were energetic, I really felt like I was making sure that I was hearing everything. It's really important for me because I know that when there's energy being presented, that I want whatever that is. And so feeling it, I was like, okay, what am I hearing? What am I listening to? What am I really interested in? Then the things you were talking about, especially with Joan Mitchell and the circles, and drawing in the space, I was really excited about.
But also this, remember we brought up Daniel Turner. That's crazy, literally Daniel Turner that is Rita Ackermann’s partner, when he did the first show at the journal, when they opened up their huge space in Williamsburg and he made a stain, but it went the whole length of the wall. When I went in there, I was like, I feel like you lifted, Richard Serra sculpture out of the space and that's the stain. And I feel like that stain under that painting is very much some connection with your work in the space and like this kind of a conceptual art piece, right?
Yeah, and it's so funny because it's one of those things where the work does itself, does its own thing, and the work has its own spirit, and I kind of just work with whatever that spirit gives me. um,
By talking to you, there’s also this kind of like innocence and vulnerable strength that you give off, that your personality gives off, you're very humble. Right? Do you feel like that?
So, when I grew up, it was me, my sister and my mom. My dad split, don't know where he's at, never met him. My sister has a disability, not anything physical.
The one that I met?
No, my older sister, my other two siblings came after. So I'm 30. The oldest of them, or my sister is 17. So there was a giant gap between the two of us, but I have another sister who's a year and a half younger than me and she has a mental disability and another other disability from her side of the family. But either way, what I'm bringing up her for is because she had that going on and essentially I recognize that at a young age and what that made me do was realized that I needed to be patient. I also needed to have an understanding of life differently because the attention that the family needed to give her because of her issues had nothing to do with me. I also needed to be the one to be in this position to whenever I needed to.
Khari I’m being honest with you, I definitely think that you are going to take care of a lot of people through your art career.
I’m trying to, for sure. I think it's one of those things from growing up in that way, I really got to understand that, you know, nothing is ever about me. It's so much about the collective. It's also about being able to be patient. Listening is always important to me, especially when other people talk because there's times where she would say stuff and it would not make sense, but at the same time that if you really paid attention to what she was saying, she would tell you if she had pain or if she was happy. Being able to listen to someone is very important.
Well, what I think, from someone that's lived here for awhile and like really cares about our city and being an artist and what it means to be an artist, and the responsibilities, I think that a lot of people that you can't see really care about what you bring to the table. I think that you are protected know, and I think that it's so beautiful to see the early stages of your career. I think that being hyper aware or just being in my head so much and kind of articulating or analyzing all of the different players, I think that it's important for us as the actors and the artists to just stay in our position and make the work and just trust and have faith that everyone else is going to do their job as long as we do our job.
Very much so. I think that's the great thing about working with Destinee is I know for a fact that she knows that I'm gonna do my job, and so she works really hard to do hers in one way or another.