TiaCorine and Latto Go Glam in "FreakyT"

While he makes references to the SoundCloud era on almost every song, there’s hardly any rap production on it, except the Nelly-sampling banger “808 Selection”—included as if to prove he could still deliver. Instead the album is a unique survey of emo/punk styles. Its sensitive and aggressive songs are about cherishing the recent past, struggling to get clean, and owning a complicated identity. We got on the phone to discuss other themes of the album, the multi-act blur of his career, and the weirdness of metrics-obsessed fans. 

Full disclosure: we’re friends.

Early on, I would say you made somewhat difficult music. However at some point during the SoundCloud years, you started gaining lots of fans.

Yeah, it's hilarious and crazy.

So, who are your fans and what kind of relationship do you have with them?

The ones I talk to the most...I would say they’re people who are really attracted to the scene of music that I'm associated with, but not necessarily always 100 percent sure where they fit in it. And I think they like the hybrid idea. The idea of being a lot, or being both, or being multiple things.

Yeah.

And not really focusing on, I'm this. I say my fans are kind of confused like me maybe? Just not sure if they're for one thing or another, or if it really even needs to be that way.

It's really hard to have certain fans who know me through Peep and they’ll be like, “Wow, your numbers are so low. That sucks. You fell off.” But it's like, Nah. I never made big, popular music, really. It's just crazy that my friend is a superstar. We didn't know it was going to be like that. So it's weird sometimes to get judged. I saw a comment that was like, “fish narc is just hating... He just said that shit about the XXXTentacion/Peep song cause XXXTentacion's more relevant than him,” and I was like... Dude, how could we even be compared? Of course he's more relevant.

And I don't really understand how I would be compared to Peep. He’s a literal icon of history and people still kind of hold me to similar... I mean that's a pretty extreme one, but people will hold me to expectations of types of music that's way more popular than mine. That's a little weird.

It's because you got a lot of fans through that channel, through that platform.

Through that paradigm, you know? And that's how they are used to experiencing their fandom and relationship with artists. It's kind of like, I've noticed, sometimes like reality TV a little bit.

Yeah.

Somebody's got to get chopped or...

Wow.

Who's doing good? Who's doing bad? But I love the fans of mine that love my music and are confused like me.

There's definitely been a shift in fan culture to this kind of success prospecting.

Yes.

I think partially because you can see, quote unquote, real streaming numbers next to all these songs. There's statistics that appear to have a lot of fact to them, so people think they can construct these... I don't know, it’s like a way for people to feel like they're able to game-ify music.

Absolutely.

Which maybe is fun. I don't know.

You're really spot on. Game-ify... I've never thought about saying it that way, but... That's kind of what it is. It's like, how many points?

Yeah.

6ix9ine, nobody takes him seriously, obviously, but all he thinks about, all he ever talks about, is numbers, streaming numbers.

Right. Yeah, it's not where you come from at all, is it?

Man, I hardly am comfortable self promoting.

You know, there's also been this... Not to lump you in or anything, but after all the death in SoundCloud rap, a bunch of people that were involved have just completely dropped the hip-hop side of their act, and are just making straight up emo or punk music now. Does that register to you, or are you just sort of focused on what you're doing?

I'm pretty focused on what I'm doing. I mean, If I Die First is my friends’ project, and that makes sense to me because those guys were literally really into that specific genre. They love that shit, and it's really cool to see it. So I don't see it as being a shift in focus, because obviously people have different projects, but that's one that I think is cool. I just think looking like and being a rocker, it makes sense that it's becoming cool. I think there's a... I think my metaphor of SoundCloud rap, 2016, ‘17, was hair metal. Just blown up, everything big, getting fucked up, crazy fan culture, Rolling Loud, yada yada... it’s coming back to where people are, and not that it's a linear story, but for the sake of my metaphor, it's grunge time now.

Yeah.

People had enough of that. Too many people died. It's like fools are stripping back. And yeah, we have MGK who's hilarious, so funny, and of course he signifies something about the culture changing. Travis Barker on everybody’s shit, trying to produce for all the SoundCloud fools. It makes sense. 

I knew you would have a take on that in the big picture. 

I think it's cool. I don't know, it all makes sense. A lot of those fools are born less than 20 years ago, so it's like music that was happening when they were little kids. And that's always exciting, when you come of age, to be like, Oh yeah, I can finally own something from what was on the radio around me that I was maybe not in charge of when I was younger. 

I hope more people make rock records and then continue to make rap records. I think it's really wack to build your platform based on rap and then say that that's the weak part or something that you had to grow out of. That seems kind of weird and racist. And I do have to say that I disapprove of that line of thinking, which I have seen. But... Yeah, I guess that's the only disclaimer I really feel like is necessary. Can't act like trap is some baby shit and that you have to grow into something more sophisticated, because that's bullshit. No one would have cared about GBC if we were just regular, emo indie band stuff. The fusion is what made it good. 

Right.

So I just hope people respect the fact that trap kind of helped you get there. 

Mm-hmm. 

I have a lot of thoughts about that specific thing. 

Yeah, me too. I think a lot about gentrification of music and also about appropriation of music, because I'm white and I'm often in a Black space, or I'm writing about a Black thing. Or if I'm DJing I'm actually participating in a Black thing as an uninvited guest. So I try to just stay thinking about that stuff, and when it's time for me to shut up.

Exactly. And, god, it's so hard because one of the things inevitably that Peep's super-stardom did was it provided a blueprint for a lot of white kids who want to become a rapper. Not to say that they didn't have one before, but any white rapper, no matter their stance, creates more lanes for more white rappers which, in capitalism, takes what was hitherto particularly a Black space, or lane, takes that opportunity away from a Black person. Because selling whiteness is always easier. 

Yeah. 

And that's a condition of the racist society we live in. It's definitely crazy because you think you're a good person who acts in a way that is respectful, or expected of a guest or a participant who isn't part of necessarily the group that experienced the phenomena that helped shape the art. That you can go in and not have a negative impact. But one thing that I really have realized is that just being there and being white sometimes has a negative impact because you take away representative space.

I would like to bring up the concept of embarrassment. There's definitely songs on the album about you being embarrassed of your actions in life. And you also push your voice on some of the songs to what could be a potentially embarrassing place. Can you speak on the theme of embarrassment in this album, or shame on this album in general? 

I goofed up a lot of stuff. I really fucked up. I was really unable to keep my substance abuse problems in control for a long time. And I've had, I still have mental illness issues that have impacted stuff. And I disassociate, and I come back, and sometimes I'll just think of what I've done and it will be embarrassing. I just am constantly feeling ashamed to death almost. I could barely stand to face the world after being or doing the person I am, or something like... I think a lot of that is just self-hatred or whatever, and I don't know where that comes from. But the theme of embarrassment is palpable because if I say it first then it's mine and you can't say it about me. So I'd rather just give it to you like that, then have people dig it up.

Like taking power from it? 

Yeah. It’s just like, dude, who even cares in the first place? Who even cares? And that's why I got to say shit about myself up front. 

Yeah. So it's pretty unfiltered you.

It's really unfiltered. I'm not lying. 

So, in that case, who is WiLDFiRE for? Who'd you make the album for?

It's for Gus. 

What do you think he would have thought about it?

I hate when people put words in his mouth. 

What do you hope he would have said about it? 

“Dude, Fish... Amazing! You're a factor.” I hope he would have said some dumb ass Peep shit about it. No matter whether he liked it or not, he would have said some funny ass Gus shit. That's the thing. That's what I can't let people's pictures take away, man. I can't let all the press photos and all the glory of him take away the fact that he was a funny 20-year-old goofball. I can't lose that. He would've joked it or something. He would've loved that shit, I don't know. I assume he would've loved it. We loved each other's music, I think he would've loved it. 

Nice.

But I don't want to put words in his mouth. That's the thing.

Sure. 

God, you know how much you change between the ages of 21 and 24? He would be more grown now. And that's the thing that I dislike about how people talk about what he would or wouldn't have wanted. It’s like, dude, that guy was in formation. He was becoming. Just as my friend though, I hope he would have loved it. I assume he would have. 

I feel like the album has some nostalgia to it, where you're looking back on the SoundCloud years. Is that right? 

Yeah, it's not a nostalgia so much as a, Damn, I don't remember that much. Shit, I need those memories. I realized how important it was for me to hold on to my own memories, because seeing other people's ideas all the time kind of starts to replace stuff in your head. You wonder whether what you experienced was real or not. 

That’s deep. Because a lot of the moves that you guys were making were not being covered in any kind of serious way. There wasn't an active history being written at the time, so people put it together after the fact and there's all these competing narratives. 

Exactly, man, you're totally right. 

How did your work in SoundCloud rap influence the way you wrote this album?

I wrote WiLDFiRE like a rap record, basically. I was making the beats kind of, and then freestyling over them until I got a melody I liked, and then I would rewrite the lyrics around the melody, and keep freestyling and punching in bar for bar, sometimes. That's why there's a lot of punch-ins on WiLDFiRE. It reads kind of like a... I was joking I was more like Kasher Quon than Sunny Day Real Estate. 

Wow. So you didn't have the full arrangement down first and then fill it in, it was more like make it up as you go? 

Mm-hmm. 

Interesting. 

That's why my record is really more rap. It's funny, it sounds like a rock record, and the sonic aesthetics of it are rock, but it's produced and arranged like a rap record and recorded and made like one. I'm not trying to distance myself from being a rap producer at all. I'm so proud that I was able to make beats that people like to rap on. That shit's deeply present in my album structurally. It's not an aesthetic thing, it's like... That's the important thing. Is that it was made kind of like we would any other GBC song. 

So, why did you move to Olympia and what is the significance of Olympia to you? 

I guess I'll reverse answer that. Olympia is where I think I came of age. It was the first place that as a teenager I was allowed to be without my parents, and then other adults. So, I was in a band called Herr Jazz, with some older people, a little bit older, maybe 18, 19, me being 16, 17. We would play a lot of shows down in Olympia, cause it's a house show scene which is really crazy and a little bit younger than the Seattle DIY scene, which is still my home and my favorite, but it was rowdier in Olympia, a little more partying. I didn't really do drugs or drink, but I liked playing raucous shows, yada yada. So I love Olympia. Some of my favorite music is still music from that period. Sex Vid and Gun Outfit and stuff like that. 

But we moved here because I wanted to be in the Northwest. I wanted to be close to my family. My mom, my grandma, my uncle, and my cousins are working on this big garden plot. On my grandma's property. I wanted to learn gardening stuff. I wanted to learn some carpentry and stuff from my uncle. I was just mad sitting in my apartment in Brooklyn that was really expensive, not going outside. You know I wrote 30 songs in quarantine in New York and they're good, but I was just not enjoying what I was doing. I also recently started antidepressants and they've been helping a lot, so I just really wanted to get out and hike and be outside. And Olympia made sense cause my girlfriend's twin sister lives here. She's a real New York woman and I think it was a little bit intimidating thinking about living out here for a couple of months, but her sister is here. Actually she is getting back with a puppy today, which is crazy. 

It's kind of perfect that you're back in Olympia at this time, and you release this, quote unquote, return to your roots record. It does seem to line up, almost perfectly. 

It's funny, now that you say it, it's really striking me. 

I mean maybe I'm just foisting my music critic thing onto it. 

No, you're right. You know me.